Stupid Avatar canon question

[lizbee]

Is it ever actually said, in the show (stuff Bryan and Mike say in interviews only counts if I like it) that Ursa is not a firebender?

Because I keep seeing it come up, but I don't remember anything about it in her (very brief) appearances, and it doesn't make sense to me. I can't imagine Azulon letting even a second son marry a non-bender, or Ozai being willing to do it. And in any case, she's Roku's granddaughter and Azula's mother. I'm pretty sure she can light a match, y'know?

This week's AtLA obsessions: Ursa and Azula. Is there any Azula redemption fic? It seems like there should be -- I mean, there's a whole massive Zhao redemption comic, and on the whole I'd say his crimes have greater spiritual consquences than Azula's. But she is a girl, and that's a taint that no amount of cleansing can remove.

(My other whim, for schmoopy Ursa/Hakoda fic, was somehow answered. Only the fic is too schmoopy. I NEED A PROPER BALANCE, PEOPLE! MY WHIMS, CATER TO THEM! Or I'll have to write the damn thing myself. And we all know how that ends up.)

Comments

[myniamh]

I have a feeling that any redemption fic about Azula would only weaken her character. She'd have to have a complete change of how she sees the world and her place in it which, of course, is IN CHARGE. I'd like a redemption fic where she's faking it to manipulate her way back onto the throne! :)

[lizbee]

I guess the question is, how much of Azula's, um, emotional/moral dysfunction is natural to her personality, and how much is the result of Ozai being the Worst Father Since The Greek God Who Ate His Children? I tend to go back and forth; her early cruelty suggests it's natural, but had she been raised in a different environment, it might have been channeled into healthier directions.

[myniamh]

hmm, I have no idea. Her talent at leadership, let alone bending is probably blocking me from seeing her in a different situation. She seems so natural at it, I can see her being less cruel after a different childhood but she'd still want to do everything her way. It'd have to be pretty damn epic.

I'm not certain bending is necessarily passed through families. I don't think Toph's parents are benders, and she's the greatest earthbender ever. Maybe being Roku's grandaughter was enough. I think it's canon that all Ang's people are benders isn't it? Not all the fire nation are but I'm going to assume it's a fair chunk, not like Waterbenders and the slightly more numerous earthbenders.

Maybe it's like Squibs and if you have too many benders in one family it'll turn off?

[wolfy_writing]

I think redemption of Azula could be interesting. Tricky to do well (redemption-fic are notoriously prone to sucking the awesome out of characters), but if someone had a good feel for her, it could be amazing!

[fulselden]

Ooh! *Raises hand in class* (also, ahem, hi) - I was just talking about the non-bending Ursa issue on my journal, and saying that the reason I can never imagine her as a bender is that their entire take on her was so very much a matter of 'here is the docile noble wife mama-bear who lives for her children (or, well, at least one of them) and will also kill for them' that seeing her do something as flashy as firebending is beyond me. But then they also went and made all the Fire royals (apart from Zuko for most of the show, oh Zuko) super-awesome benders, which unless we're meant to assume they're blessed by Agni or something suggests breeding for fieryness and confuses the issue no end. But anyway! Sadly I too have found no decent Azula-redemption fic. Alas. I feel your explanation may be the correct one, as well, gah.

[weaver]

I ... it has never occurred to me that Ursa wouldn't have been a bender. Is that a thing now? These crazy kids.

Can I have an Old Mama Fandom hat?


also: And we all know how that ends up.

IT ENDS UP EXCELLENTLY. EXCELLENTLY.

[lizbee]

"I ... it has never occurred to me that Ursa wouldn't have been a bender. Is that a thing now? These crazy kids."

Yeah, apparently. A couple of the wikis etc were like, "Ursa. Powers: NONE." And I was like, SCREW YOU, MAN! JUST BECAUSE SHE'S NOT CHUCKING LIGHTNING AROUND DOESN'T MEAN SHE'S NOT WITHOUT HER OWN MAD SKILLZ.

"IT ENDS UP EXCELLENTLY. EXCELLENTLY."

NO ONE WILL WANT TO READ MY FIC ABOUT URSA AND HAKODA SNEAKING AROUND HAVING AN AFFAIR IN THE NORTHERN WATER TRIBE CITY.

Except Batu, and he'd only read it so he could tease Hakoda.

I have loved your icon for so many years. Learning that it's Iroh only makes it better.

[juliekarasik]

If you're looking for Azula redemption stuff, I'd recommend The Heart of Fire Trilogy:
http://www.fanfiction.net/s/4834864/1/Heart_of_Fire
http://www.fanfiction.net/s/5010226/1/Path_of_Fire
http://www.fanfiction.net/s/5248250/1/Soul_of_Fire

[lizbee]

"I was just talking about the non-bending Ursa issue on my journal, and saying that the reason I can never imagine her as a bender is that their entire take on her was so very much a matter of 'here is the docile noble wife mama-bear who lives for her children (or, well, at least one of them) and will also kill for them' that seeing her do something as flashy as firebending is beyond me."

I have this serious weakness for stories about women who grow up being told that they're powerless and weak, and believing it, right up until the day they're pushed to the brink and discover just how strong and powerful they are. So for that reason, I'm really drawn to the idea of Ursa, even though she never appeared outside of her children's unreliable memories and hallucinations.

[weaver]

FIC ABOUT URSA AND HAKODA SNEAKING AROUND HAVING AN AFFAIR IN THE NORTHERN WATER TRIBE CITY. GIVE IT TO ME OMG. GIVE IT TO ME RIGHT NOW. IT IS VERY IMPORTANT. OTHERWISE YOU MAY DIE.


Man, I always figured the Fire Nation royals were way, way too inbred not to have firebenders for every possible parental influence ever. I don't know if it's canon or fanon that only the royal family (and Zhao, who could totally be related) have the gold eyes, but whichever, that clearly means that firebenders are inbred.

Then again, Ursa's one of those silly wimmens, and they don't need to have powers anyway, I guess. (Azula just tried to kill me inside my head.)

IT IS THE BEST ICON. APPROPRIATE IN EVERY SITUATION.

[lizbee]

"FIC ABOUT URSA AND HAKODA SNEAKING AROUND HAVING AN AFFAIR IN THE NORTHERN WATER TRIBE CITY. GIVE IT TO ME OMG. GIVE IT TO ME RIGHT NOW. IT IS VERY IMPORTANT. OTHERWISE YOU MAY DIE."

IMAGINE WHAT SOKKA AND ZUKO WOULD SAY WHEN THEY FOUND OUT.

IMAGINE WHAT FACES THEY WOULD PULL.

While, I guess, Katara would be like, "Yeah, I was a bit weirded out at first, and of course I like to compete with Zuko for mother issues, but let's talk about the fact that my best beloved is only just entering puberty. Now that keeps me up at night."

"I don't know if it's canon or fanon that only the royal family (and Zhao, who could totally be related) have the gold eyes, but whichever, that clearly means that firebenders are inbred."

I suddenly don't know if it's fanon or canon either! HOLD ME!

But yeah, I figure that the upper echelons of Fire Nation society are probably lacking a few branches in their family trees. Which would, come to think of it, explain a lot about Azula, too.

"Then again, Ursa's one of those silly wimmens, and they don't need to have powers anyway, I guess. (Azula just tried to kill me inside my head.)"

Yeah, this is a universe where even the women who don't have magical spirit powers can kill you with fans, fingers and cutlery.

[lizbee]

Yeah, I don't actually know how to go about it, but I think it's potentially really interesting. What's the point in suffering a total breakdown and apparent personality disintegration if you don't come out of it a better person?

[lizbee]

"I'm not certain bending is necessarily passed through families. I don't think Toph's parents are benders, and she's the greatest earthbender ever. Maybe being Roku's grandaughter was enough. I think it's canon that all Aang's people are benders isn't it? Not all the fire nation are but I'm going to assume it's a fair chunk, not like Waterbenders and the slightly more numerous earthbenders."

That's true. And Word of God says that bending isn't a genetic trait. Which I don't actually believe, but at least they haven't repeated JKR's mistake of trying to actually bring in proper science.

I love how well Avatar maps onto HP. One day, Hermione and Katara will overcome the hindrance of fictionality and take over the world. For its own good, of course.

[fulselden]

right up until the day they're pushed to the brink and discover just how strong and powerful they are

Oh, for reals, me too. And obviously it's canon that Ursa was pretty damn ruthless when she had to be, and we do only see her through Zuko's rose-tinted memories and Azula's glass-o-conscience - I just can't dissociate my image of her from what we see there (hmm - not sure what this reveals about my general assumptions re wives n' mothers in fiction...). But I would love to read about Ursa: fearsome bender!

[lizbee]

Ursa's story also ties into my other great kink, for people who do terrible things for what they hope are the right reasons, and then have to live with the consequences.

(Oh, Zuko.)

"(hmm - not sure what this reveals about my general assumptions re wives n' mothers in fiction...)"

I think it reveals at least as much about the general portrayal of wives 'n' mothers in fiction. An episode where, say, the gAang encountered Ursa without realising who she was would have provided a whole different perspective. Or perspectives.

[lizbee]

Thanks!

[fulselden]

I think it reveals at least as much about the general portrayal of wives 'n' mothers in fiction.

INDEED. Poor Ursa. Poor Kya. Oh Avatar, you and your missing mums, whyyyyy. And the Gaang meeting Ursa idea also calls for fic!

[innerbrat]

How obvious is it that Zhao is like, Ozai and Iroh's cousin. AZULON'S OTHER GRANDSON.

No wonder he gots the issues.

[innerbrat]

I totally meant Sozon, not Azulon. You knew what I meant.

[myniamh]

Every time I see that icon of yours I get the 'found wanting' quote from A Knight's Tale.

I dread the day someone at Marvel tries to explain mutants with 'science'. Or that the Stargate people try to come up with something other than vague in canon handwaving at why everyone speaks English.

I for one, welcome our new sensible overlords. :)

[innerbrat]

Well, Toph's awesomosity is not a result of an innate awesome talent she was born with, but but because of her unique style of bending that she learned direct from the source. It's how she bends, not the power of her bending.

Actually in most cases, it seems to be how they're taught and the style they use that is important. Zuko vs Azula and Katara's crazy talents being the exception, rather than the rule.

[lizbee]

NEVER EXPLAIN ANYTHING. If anyone asks, a wizard did it. Or a giant turtle.

[weaver]

No, I think that even holds true for Zuko and Azula. They're taught to use rage, and that falls dismally flat for Zukes in third season until he does his shiny dragon magic dance and learns to do it properly, and then he's Super Awesome again, right? So that kinna makes sense to me.

And all I ask in fiction is "kinna makes sense" really.

Toph's awesomeosity defies description.

[weaver]

YES PLEASE.



(What, demanding fic totally counts as a worthwhile contribution to the thread.)

[weaver]

I totally did, it's OK. Zhao is the BITTEREST NEARLY-COUSIN EVER.