My main take away from The Last Jedi...

[lizbee]

I mean, okay, it was ... structurally problematic.

"Let's just send two characters off on a side quest which ultimately doesn't affect the plot at all" was certainly a choice which was made, and it's just through sheer luck and the talent, charisma and chemistry of John Boyega and Kelly Marie Tran that the Finn and Rose plotline was so entertaining that I almost forgot how ridiculous it was.

But what I keep coming back to is this: how are the second generation Rebel men so terrible?!

Poe: receives an important lesson from Leia about the more subtle types of heroism that don't end with a whole lot of people dying unnecessarily. Turns right around and chucks a tanty mutiny because a lady, who has no need at all to explain herself to him, refuses to explain herself to him.

He comes across as entitled and kind of obnoxious and mansplainy, and it's only because Oscar Isaac is so pretty that I don't hate Poe outright. (In fact, I kind of ship Holdo/Poe, but only if it's a bit kinky and he's not allowed to speak in her presence ever.)

(BASICALLY, now I have a second-favourite space vice admiral, and it's niche, but I'll take every crumb that 2017 throws my way, and also if anyone were to write fic where Holdo and Cornwell get drunk, lament the pretty-but-useless men under their command and then make out, there's an audience for that right here.)

Meanwhile, Ben Solo -- in addition to his many, many other failures -- has decided that the way to win Rey over is to re-enact Darcy's first proposal. You know, the one where he insults Elizabeth's family but deigns to love her in spite of them.

Mate. You gotta read the whole book. And also stop killing people, although his actual body count was a lot lower this time around, so well ... done?

Anyway, IN SHORT, someone has badly let down the sons of the Rebellion. I assume it's Han Solo's fault somehow. Or Lando's. Or both. Thank heavens we have Finn, The Only Non-Garbage Man Of His Generation, to save us all.

(I am genuinely annoyed about the Poe thing, though. Like, you go in expecting Kylo Ren to be THE WORST, and that is the one area where he's not going to disappoint you. But Poe turns out to be awful in such a common, mediocre way, just like millions of men out there in the real world. Only prettier.)

Comments

[orcofnewyork]

I really came away with the feeling that Rian Johnson was only interested in the Rey and Skywalker clan saga and that every POC character was an annoying inconvenience to him. Which bummed me out a lot.

Poe's characterization especially made zero sense. He's reckless, but he's not THAT reckless and according to TFA supplementary material his mother was in the Rebellion. Poe does not have a problem with chain of command or women in the military and this movie decided that now he does for a Lesson to Be Learned. I also think it didn't do any favors to Holdo to be like "hate on this woman for most of the movie and then suddenly like her thanks to this reveal." Again, I think Johnson just wasn't interested in anyone but his faves and it showed all over the screen.

[sabrina]

I personally felt like Poe was really in character to how he's been portrayed in the comics. I just finished the third TPB a few weeks ago and there's a few issues out I haven't read yet, but nothing about his characterization in TLJ felt off to me.

What I liked about his arc, was that (at least in my initial viewing), he does seem to come out at the end of it with a lesson actually learned. I also didn't get the lesson being so one hundred percent about gender. It could be applied that way and in a very timely way too considering, but I don't think it has to be, if I were to detail Poe's journey, it would be 'he figured out how to look at the big picture, rather than the battle right in front of him', and that doesn't seem like an unreasonable journey for someone who has primarily been required to look at the mission/battle right in front of him, but who does need to be able to step up into leadership.

I also didn't personally get that we were intended to hate on Holdo, but again, she was in the Princess Leia novel and was a very likable character there, so this may be one of those things where having read supplementary materials very definitely skewed my perspective going into the film.

[rj_anderson]

I agree with all of this, and I haven't even read the supplementals. I felt that Poe's recklessness was very much in line with the passion and idealism we saw from him in TFA, and the zeal that led him to ignore even Leia's orders when he saw a chance to strike a real blow for the Resistance -- he truly believed that Holdo was putting all their lives in danger by being too conservative, and that Leia would never have agreed to such a passive-seeming plan.

I don't think he underestimated Holdo because she was female, or that he would have agreed to her orders more readily if they had come from a male general -- indeed, I've yet to see anything in the new trilogy that smacks of misogyny to me, which is one of the reasons I love it so much. I think he underestimated her because she was an outsider and he didn't know if he could trust her, and he was too afraid of her making the wrong call to wait and find out. Which is presumably why Kaydel and others sided with him in the mutiny, because they felt the same way.

And yeah, to me it was clear that Poe's character arc was "hotheaded pilot learns the perspective and wisdom he needs to become a true leader," which I expect is going to be really important in Ep. 9 when Leia's gone. I'm fine with all of that, I just felt like he should have been more strongly reprimanded for his actions in the mutiny.

[sabrina]

I've not been reading all of them, but I love Poe, and I love Phil Noto's art, so the Poe comics shuffled to the top of - checking these out.

I think that's a good point about Holdo. My husband said the same thing about the reprimand, and I don't disagree with that. It feels like there should have been a harsher one.

I suspect on a personal level, considering the losses and how strongly he feels about the Resistance, boy is feeling that failure pretty significantly.

I really hope, side note, that Kaydel Ko gets an expanded role in 9 too, cause it'd make my heart warm to see Billie there more. I was glad that she got more of one in this film.

[lizbee]

It feels like there should have been a harsher one.

WITH KISSING.

[sabrina]

I'm laughing so hard right now. But, I'm good with that too! =D

[lizbee]

I also didn't get the lesson being so one hundred percent about gender.

Yeah, I don't think it was intended that way at all -- it just happened to come at this particular moment in history.

[sabrina]

It works with the time well. But there's a larger lesson there, so I think it'll age without feeling too preachy in the moment, if that makes sense.

[orcofnewyork]

I personally felt like Poe was really in character to how he's been portrayed in the comics.

That's really good to know! I have been keeping up as best I can with the new novels but not with the comics yet. I'm glad that it's established characterization then and not just plot convenience for the movie to keep the side characters busy. I really appreciate your commentary, it makes me better understand where the Poe subplot was coming from.

I think Holdo was deliberately set up to be disliked by the audience in that cliche "Here's an authority figure that is antagonizing a protagonist character, but wait they had Reasons!(tm)" Like I knew the way the script was playing out that she obviously had information that Poe and the audience didn't have so clearly there was going to be a big reveal that she was right all along. Which is why I didn't appreciate that we were supposed to be angry with her for blocking a protag's action. I haven't read the Leia novel yet, but now I'm very intrigued because I wanted to like Holdo from the get-go in the movie and also I need more Leia-centric stories in my life.

Thank you again for the commentary! TLJ was a challenging non-typical Star Wars movie so there's a lot to chew on.

[sabrina]

I've been spot-reading based on interest/reception pretty much since they swapped canon, but Poe Dameron definitely falls under interest! But yeah, I really felt it was true to the Poe we see in the comics - super mission in front of him focused, a little reckless at times, dedicated to the Resistance, but not always mindful of the larger picture, and he pushes back against Leia at times too. Basically, I finished up through like issue 19? (thru vol. 3 of the TPB) in November, and the characterization flowed to me, and then I got online and people were complaining about him being OOC and I'm just like, wait, really? LOL. So obviously, for me it worked.

But....! Don't walk, RUN to go get the Princess Leia novel. So far I think Claudia Gray has written all of my favorite novels in the new canon. It's not just good Leia, it's good coming of age YA, and it's as satisfying as really amazing fanfiction. It's hands down my favorite novel of the new canon. And there's a lot of Bail and Breha and it left me wanting a whole story (or MAYBE an anthology film?) about Breha. Like, more Organas in 2018 please!

[lizbee]

I also think it didn't do any favors to Holdo to be like "hate on this woman for most of the movie and then suddenly like her thanks to this reveal."

Wait, we were meant to hate Holdo? I loved her from the moment she appeared, and I thought we were meant to.

Poe's characterisation made perfect sense -- he's used to operating alone, or leading a small squadron on a specific mission, and now he needs to learn to see the bigger picture. But he's resistant, because it's a new way of thinking, and he doesn't trust Holdo because she's a stranger to him.

He's a jerk and an idiot, and Leia shooting him was my favourite part of his arc, but it made perfect sense.

I'm puzzled by your remarks about Johnson, because it's not as if he snuck in some new or unplanned storytelling under the noses of Kathleen Kennedy and Disney. This is clearly the story that was planned from the start, and while Finn and Rose's subplot doesn't pay off right away, it's the emotional heart of the story, the key to the considerable character growth Finn undergoes, and also provides the long-term hope that the Resistance needs.

[rj_anderson]

What Liz said. I think it's good to remember, as well, that neither Finn nor Poe was ever supposed to be part of the larger story. It was always going to be about Ben and Rey from the beginning, and Finn was just a comedy sidekick for Rey in the early drafts while Poe was meant to die in the battle of Tuanul and never be seen again (at least until Oscar Isaac talked JJ Abrams into letting him live instead).

So when LF saw how positive the fan reaction to Finn and Poe were, they had to do some fast retooling of Ep. 8 to give them an expanded role in the saga, which explains why at first glance it feels a bit tacked on and not as emotionally resonant as the Luke/Rey/Ben part of the story. That's a Doylist explanation rather than a Watsonian one, which I know is not always the most satisfying, but I don't think it's really got anything to do with Rian only being interested in the white characters.

[orcofnewyork]

I think Holdo was being set up to be the authority figure the audience dislikes for blocking a protagonist's desired action. It just had that vibe and I didn't appreciate it because I wanted to like her, not be manipulated into thinking she was an Out of Touch Authority Figure.

I appreciate the commentary on Poe. I forgot that his MO had been usually been solo missions or small squadrons.

I'm not saying Johnson snuck in anything new or unwanted, the Skywalker saga is the heart of the franchise and I understand that. What I'm saying is I felt he was bored with the the characters not directly involved with that particular plotline and it impeded my enjoyment of the non-Skywalker focused subplots because the writing quality was so vastly different. I didn't get that vibe from The Force Awakens, the writing felt like it loved every character for however long or short they were onscreen. (Not that TFA didn't have some writing problems, but I never felt there was a lack of love for characters).