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lizbee ([personal profile] lizbee) wrote2018-12-30 07:53 am
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Against hopepunk

It's difficult to articulate why I hate the entire concept of "hopepunk" and quite a lot of the works recommended under that label, because just thinking about it sends my shoulders up around my ears.

This is mostly thanks to my childhood and adolescence, and specifically my parents' friends.



My parents were extremely conservative Catholics. Technically they still are, but the world's definition of "conservative" has moved further to the right these days, and apparently my father is considered a leading progressive academic in Singapore.

Mum and Dad censored our popular culture consumption, but only to an extent. We weren't allowed to watch the Star Trek: The Next Generation episode "The Outcast", for example, in case we got the idea that gay people should have human rights, and anything sexually explicit was right out. For the most part, though, they let us know when they disapproved of something we were watching, and talked about why. (Captain Planet, for example. Paganism and environmentalism. Very bad.)

And when they censored our reading material, it was more out of snobbishness than concerns about content -- I wasn't allowed to read Sweet Valley or Babysitter's Club books, for example, because they were considered intellectually lightweight. On the other hand, Mum enjoyed reading any other YA that came into my hands, and reserved her greatest criticism for Prices by David McRobbie, about drug trafficking, murder and art forgery in a small town: "He uses a bit of language, doesn't he?"

Basically, unless there was a whiff of homosexuality involved, Mum and Dad were engaged but moderately permissive when it came to our media, and after I was thirteen or so, I was allowed to read anything that came into the house. (I had by this time read Mum's secret stash of Jackie Collins novels, which was the closest to Sweet Valley that I could find. So that ban backfired spectacularly.)

But lots of their friends were even more conservative Catholics -- the sort who homeschooled their kids because Catholic schools were too liberal, and kept tight rein over what they read and watched. And these friends were pretty appalled that we were allowed to attend school and watch and read more or less what we wanted -- even books and TV shows for adults.

(For the record, most of their kids have grown up and rebelled by becoming teachers. In state schools, even! Except one, who was, last time I checked, a leading anti-capitalist economist and punk musician.)

They expressed their disapproval in the traditional form for educated middle class people: passive-aggressive gifts of books. Specifically, Catholic guides to popular culture, with ratings for morality, wholesomeness, good messages and so forth.

Naturally, I read them. And I was intrigued to note that nothing I enjoyed got a good review -- Star Trek: The Next Generation, for example, was criticised for its dangerously humanistic philosophies. Asimov and McCaffrey -- along with the few other science fiction authors included in the brief fiction section -- were called out for secularism, atheism and generally being anti-God.

And it's not that these descriptions were wrong! Star Trek is famously humanist! McCaffrey depicted Pern as a world without religion of any kind! (She was also dinged for "unwholesomeness", which I suspect is a reference to the problematic queerness of dragonriders.)

(Grounds on which a work might be deemed unwholesome:
  • sex
  • queer sex
  • any allusion to queerness whatsoever, whether or not actual sex is involved
  • single parenthood
  • violence
  • death
  • even natural death, sometimes
  • divorce
  • depictions of religion other than Catholicism
  • High Anglicanism is acceptable in a pinch
  • but only just barely
  • arbitrary, undefined Bad Things)

But I still found value in those stories, and I disliked the idea of rejecting a work wholesale because it did not entirely align with one's philosophy -- or, worse, for an arbitrary value of wholesomeness. (Also -- I understood the message behind the passive-aggressive book giving: THEY WERE COMING FOR MY STAR TREK.)

Fortunately, when I finally -- rather nervously -- asked, Mum had no intention of giving up her Star Trek either. So we went on as we had always gone on, and I got to make up my own mind about the fiction I consumed, without regard to its wholesome qualities.


(I'd really like to pretend that I rejected Marion Zimmer Bradley because I sensed that she was a creep and a sexual abuser, but honestly, I was just a fourteen-year-old anti-feminist who had no patience for "the world was a matriarchy until Christianity came along and ruined it' nonsense.)

That was the '90s. Cut to 2018, and apparently it's cool to judge works by their "wholesomeness" because ... I dunno, I look at the world and sometimes I think my parents' friends won.

Finally, the bit where I talk about hopepunk

This article is doing the rounds, explaining what hopepunk is. It's by Aja Romano, which means it's deeply stupid and does a profound disservice to the entire concept of hopepunk, which is to say, it makes it even worse. But the definition she offers, long and muddy as it is, works:

Depending on who you ask, hopepunk is as much a mood and a spirit as a definable literary movement, a narrative message of “keep fighting, no matter what.” If that seems too broad — after all, aren’t all fictional characters fighting for something? — then consider the concept of hope itself, with all the implications of love, kindness, and faith in humanity it encompasses.

Now, picture that swath of comfy ideas, not as a brightly optimistic state of being, but as an active political choice, made with full self-awareness that things might be bleak or even frankly hopeless, but you’re going to keep hoping, loving, being kind nonetheless.

Through this framing, the idea of choosing hope becomes both an existential act that affirms your humanity, and a form of resistance against cynical worldviews that dismiss hope as a powerful force for change.

Now, I quite like a bit of optimism in my fiction, and I'm not averse to the occasional happy ending now and then -- although one of the reasons I don't read romance fiction is that the happy ending is built in, and the lack of tension irritates me.

Here's my beef:

"Hope" and "optimism" are incredibly subjective concepts. What one person finds comforting, another will find cloying, and what many people found enjoyable and reassuring, I found boring and sexist.

One of Aja's suggestions for "hopepunk" in television is The Expanse. I love The Expanse, and I was arguing just a few weeks ago that it's a profoundly optimistic series. But it's also very, very dark -- there's body horror, there's psychological horror, there's the terrorist attack in the later books which kills billions of people and renders Earth almost uninhabitable. What makes it optimistic, for me, is that redemption is never off the table for people who want it. Atonement is hard work, and painful, but it's there.

But a lot of people disagree, and consider it grimdark. Not to mention that the first book features a straight-up fridging of a woman of colour, and the whole series is replete with the male gaze.

It's subjective. Star Trek is widely considered optimistic and hopeful, but a lot of people look at a universe which was entirely devoid of canonical queer people until just the last few years, and see a dystopia where they and people like them have been erased.

And modern fandom -- okay, Tumblr -- has this bad habit of describing works as more pure ("pure") than they actually are. Like, people will claim that Mad Max: Fury Road treats all women as people, overlooking that the Milking Mothers -- fatter and darker-skinned than the Wives -- are shown hooked up to milking machines and treated as props. I'm still mad about that time people told me -- and I believed them -- that Pacific Rim was a smart, feminist movie. Tumblr's current favourite movie is Addams Family Values, which a friend recently rewatched and found full of racism and jokes about violence against women.

Now, my only actual trigger is "bad things being portrayed as good or, at least, deserved", so a lot of the discourse around hopepunk really puts me on edge. Take, for example, "hopepunk" coiner Alexandra Rowland's list of people (men) who embody the concept: “Jesus and Gandhi and Martin Luther King and Robin Hood and John Lennon”. Out of five men, one is fictional, two were domestic abusers. I mean. Seriously?

I like a lot of the things Aja points to as signifiers of "hopepunk"! Community building, perseverance, connection.

But then I see the words "weaponised cuteness", and I want to punch something out of sheer contrariness. Fuck you and your commodification of hope and optimism, your narrow little boxes and wilful misreading of texts. The Handmaid's Tale is hopepunk? The Hate U Give? These are great works, and I love them, but let's not pretend they're not incredibly dark. They're just not nihilistic. The Broken Earth? I haven't read it, but I've seen it described as "grimdark but without sexual violence" -- which I said on Twitter, only for [personal profile] coffeeandink to tell me that it does, in fact, contain sexual violence. The Vorkosigan Saga? One of my all-time favourite series, but it has a shitton of sexual violence and I could not in good conscience recommend it to a trans or genderqueer person.

I see a lot of black and white thinking bound up in "hopepunk". A lot of "I like it, and I found value in it, therefore it is optimistic and hopepunk, and self-care is hopepunk, and so are kittens and memes".

And that's fine, so far as it goes, but ... again. It's subjective. We're back to the concept of "wholesomeness" in fiction, which became popular on Tumblr just before "hopepunk" emerged as a concept. To be honest, I have trouble separating the two.

But to me, ascribing wholesomeness to a work of fiction is as useless as ascribing a moral value to a food. Fresh, warm wholemeal bread is healthy for most people, but I'm gluten intolerant, so it'll only give me diarrhoea. All fiction contains problematic elements, and some you can overlook, others are dealbreakers. And if there are too many dealbreakers in a work described as "hopeful", you start to wonder if the problem is you.
hushpiper: (hands)

[personal profile] hushpiper 2018-12-30 08:10 am (UTC)(link)
I think maybe the issue here is specifically the conflation of hopepunk (which I would think would be the struggle between cynicism and optimism?), and the dumbass, cloying Tumblr conception of "wholesomeness". What exactly about Parks and Rec speaks to the defiant fight to cling to hope in the face of despair? Nothing? Then why the fuck is it on her list?

The aesthetic of hopepunk can be seen as part of a broader cultural embrace of “softness,” wholesomeness, and gentleness.


Ah right, because it's ~wholesome~ and ~soft~. Because it's a warm comedy with lovable characters. Except there's nothing punk about that. There's this weirdly mashed-together feel to the article; it seems like Aja's thinking of two separate things, one of which is Sam's speech in LotR, and the other of which is something more along the lines of my "for bad days" tag: sweet, fun or uplifting things to be consumed unironically to help get me through bad times. I could give you plenty of examples of both (though I prefer the former), but they're two very different things.

It's funny, because what I think hopepunk is "supposed" to mean is actually a huge story kink of mine. If you asked me instead of Aja, "hopepunk" would be stories where hope is deliberately contrasted against harsh challenges to that hope. "Punk" isn't punk unless there's some larger power or trend that you're asserting yourself against--in this case, the pressures of cynicism and despair. Hopepunk wouldn't be the opposite of grimdark at all--just grimdark with a different conclusion, which is a thin, thin line. It's "hope" because hope is its ultimate destination; it's "punk" because in order to get there, in order for hope to have any meaning, you have to take a long swallow from the grimdark keg.

I don't know what "comfort", "coziness" or "kawaii culture" have to do with that.

And honestly, her attempts to make rom-coms and hygge fit into the same slot as eternal resistance against oppressive forces come off... weird, shallow, tacky. Which I suspect is the real issue: "hopepunk" is frankly a pretty straightforward, emotion-based trope (character feels trapped and hopeless, character decides to embrace hope despite still being trapped: hopepunk!), but by giving it a name, it's become conflated with the particular subculture that named it, with all its value judgments and weird-ass purity culture baggage.

Or maybe what I've described is too broad, or maybe not broad enough (is Aja describing a genre, or a trend, or a new subculture?), and at this point, "hopepunk" as a term is so specific as to be hopelessly entwined with the Tumblr culture that spawned it, permanently tainted with Tumblr's pastel-colored infantilism and simplistic black-and-white views of the world. Hands up for ~uwu pure hopepunk~ I guess. I'll be over here in my corner with The Black Parade.

* I think I agree with @syncytio that this is really more of a trope than a genre, anyway. Especially if we're going to be comparing and contrasting it to grimdark, which also is not a genre--and which, like hopepunk and all other tropes, is pretty subjective.
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[personal profile] sugar_fey 2018-12-30 08:48 am (UTC)(link)
"I always have to clean up after you boys, tee hee! Pass me the bandaids and a mop!"
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[personal profile] ironed_orchid 2018-12-30 09:33 am (UTC)(link)
Relevant tweet is relevant

Existential Comics: The worst part about becoming an educated adult is that you realize that you can’t explain everything with just one thing. When you are young it’s easy to say: everything is sex! everything is greed! everything is science! But it turns out everything is…hopelessly complicated.

[personal profile] notasupervillain 2018-12-30 09:53 am (UTC)(link)
Grimdark I think of almost as an aesthetic choice. If I use it to describe a show, it invariably has poor lighting and dirty sets. The dark Knight rises is grimdark by my definition. Little Drummer Girl, which is about the soul destroying things spies and terrorists do to protect their people, isn't, because plenty of the cinematography is brightly lit and vivid colours. Blade Runner is grimdark. Hunger Games is not. Lots of the first movie take place in a forest!

My husband's theory is that grimdark originated in Warhammer 40k, where the first illustrator was only given a month to do the art for the entire rulebook. So he did black and white sketches of a dystopia. Making grimdark an aesthetic choice there - it's physically dark as well as dystopia.

I often but not always dislike grimdark because it feels pretentious. I get the sense that people writing Tragedies think their work is more Important than those writing Comedies. And I get the sense that people writing Grimdark feel it's more Important than Bright Dystopia. And I don't agree! Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Stone dealt with child abuse and classism and all sorts of serious themes without undersaturating the colours. If you want to go grimdark, you'd better have a reason for it, not just do it cause you can. I like being able to see what I'm watching.

The same applies to books, but it's easier to explain my opinions with movies.

[personal profile] notasupervillain 2018-12-30 09:56 am (UTC)(link)
It feels very American prosperity gospel to me.

[personal profile] notasupervillain 2018-12-30 10:00 am (UTC)(link)
In its best iteration, this can be a simple character choice, that humans often cope with the unbearable by finding hope and purpose in whatever they have. I'd argue this for Mistborn - some of the characters had hope, some chose hope conciously, and some were nihilist but fought on anyway.

But you need quite an author to pull that off.

[personal profile] notasupervillain 2018-12-30 10:11 am (UTC)(link)
In a particularly dark part of my life, I found my way to Camus-style hope. (ironically from reading essays about his work rather than the thing itself. I need to fix that.)

I couldn't find and peace in hope, because I did (and do) believe that there's no happy ending coming. But I couldn't stop myself from fighting for it anyway. And most philosophies I found said you can't fight without hope. There was something incredibly comforting in finding someone who said that you don't need hope to keep going, and even to keep sacrificing and fighting.

On that note, any recommendations for what Camus to start with?

[personal profile] notasupervillain 2018-12-30 10:54 am (UTC)(link)
Nah, the Saw movies are torture-porn with the veneer of redemption. You'll live if you're Good enough, by a fairly sick description of "Good".

XCOM as a purely pessimistic game?
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[personal profile] jesuswasbatman 2018-12-30 12:07 pm (UTC)(link)
"Torchwood: Children of Earth"?
jesuswasbatman: (Default)

[personal profile] jesuswasbatman 2018-12-30 12:17 pm (UTC)(link)
Have you seen this essay, which doesn't have a timestamp, so I don't know whether it was written in response to the Aja one, but is by the person who first coined the "hopepunk" word?
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[personal profile] capri0mni 2018-12-30 12:28 pm (UTC)(link)

(Sorry to tl;dr, but I have Strong Opinions on this book and how I think it's done very dirty by forcing schoolkids to read it... Ditto Lord of the Flies, for that matter. D:)


Don't apologize. I like literary rants, even if I don't like the literature they're ranting about.

...And I have similarly strong feelings about Shakespeare, and how his work is also done dirty by school curricula.
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[personal profile] ironed_orchid 2018-12-30 01:05 pm (UTC)(link)
That's by the person who Aja interviews and quotes extensively in her article.

(Who incidentally picked a fight recently on twitter with Carmen Maria Machedo, while claiming literary fiction is more snobbish and cliquey than SFF.)
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[personal profile] wolfy_writing 2018-12-30 01:09 pm (UTC)(link)
Yeah, one of the most realistic things is that people don't just immediately go "Well, this bad thing happened, so I'm going to assume it will only get worse, and start organizing to fight back against the spreading totalitarian government", there's a lot of confusion and inaction because it's very ordinary things like "My bank account doesn't work, I can't just buy things, but hey, my money goes to my husband so I can still get things". I've been in countries in the early stages of dictatorships, when they did "Life goes on as normal! Except now there's one more thing. And a bit after that, one more thing. And then one more thing." And that's very hard to get people organized against.

Yeah, there needs to be organization and coordination, not just "I personally will be heroic", and taking action is often heavily about things like figuring out what kind of action is worth taking when, and pushing past awkwardness and doubts and "Is it really worth the risk when I don't know how much of a difference it makes?", and a lot messier and less cinematic than people think.
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[personal profile] jesuswasbatman 2018-12-30 01:11 pm (UTC)(link)
It's a lot closer to the positions of the people here than the lazy and twee aja article, though.
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[personal profile] wolfy_writing 2018-12-30 01:23 pm (UTC)(link)
Yeah, sometimes there's value in "I recognize this, someone else gets it too" or "It's not just me, it isn't simple and easy" or all kinds of things. The whole reason fiction is broad and varied with a wide range of tones, narratives, and approaches is because lots of different people can get lots of different things, not because so many people are Problematic and refusing to enjoy Wholesome, Heathy fiction out of badness or unhealthiness. (Ugh, yeah. The whole thing where if stories don't end with people being Cured, they have to be presented as having a big epiphany or something to create the impression of a Happy Ending, because the stories of people who don't get better, or fluctuate between Better and Still Pretty Bad, or can't boil down finding value in their life into some specific big change from Bad to Better have no value. And, ironically, it tends to give short shrift to recovery in mental health memoirs, because in trying to cram in one big, dramatic moment near the end of the book it largely avoids the fairly common and realistic "Messy fluctuations up and down, with healthier mindsets and behaviors being adopted, falling apart under stress, being picked back up again, gradually getting more and longer stretches of healthier, and eventually hitting a point where symptoms either fade out or become mild and manageable enough they're a lot easier to live with". It's all "Sickness, sickness, sickness, one big and dramatic turnaround, story over!")

[personal profile] notasupervillain 2018-12-30 01:38 pm (UTC)(link)
I loved it, but the ending felt wrong, like something out of the wrong story. The rest of the movie was telling one story, a Star Wars story, and the ending was from another story.
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[personal profile] syncytio 2018-12-30 01:41 pm (UTC)(link)
Honestly, I don't think half the ppl who think about hopepunk know what it is anymore. I think if we're talking of it as a genre, it would have to be books where radical kindness and spiteful/vicious hope is a core theme
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[personal profile] syncytio 2018-12-30 01:45 pm (UTC)(link)
Fuck, man, at this stage I don't think Aja knows what hopepunk is, just thinking of jumping on the bandwagon. You know, like how she writes about fandoms and fanfic tropes without actually...understanding it, only that suddenly it's popular.

People seem to forget the whole "punk" aspect of hopepunk. -Punk has always been reactionary, and going against the norm. It doesn't mean sweetness and light. The original essay describes radical kindness and how grubby and dirty that fight can get, which Aja just....ugh
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[personal profile] wolfy_writing 2018-12-30 01:51 pm (UTC)(link)
Yeah, I find the idea of people insisting on making something good in the face of a nightmare, snatching hope, kindness and joy from the face of Hell, and insisting on fighting the kind of hopelessness that's used to promote dystopias really cool. But I absolutely hate how Tumblr gets about Soft and Wholesome, and I have a profound distrust of how capitalism treats those things (and a lot of opinions about what individualist capitalism is doing to the concept of self-care), and I really don't want to hear how my interestingly nasty, but not hopelessly bleak dystopian fiction is part of the same thing as fucking Americanized commercialized hygge.

(I've been in totalitarian countries, and places where horrible things happen and keep happening, and two things that get used to maintain the horrible status quo are encouraging denial of how bad it is, and encouraging hopelessness about it ever getting better. "Look at all of these nice and pleasant things! Okay, not for those people, but they're all flawed and disruptive and have done things wrong, so don't look at them! Look at all of these good things, enjoy how you can have pleasant and comfortable things and don't think too hard!" is up next to "Don't think you can change things, it's all going to go wrong, accept failure and defeat, change for the better is hopeless" on the list of ways to maintain the status quo.)
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[personal profile] highlyeccentric 2018-12-30 03:00 pm (UTC)(link)
I don’t have the same strongly negative response to the hopepunk meme as you, but it just... never manages to appeal to me as a framework. I really enjoyed this breakdown, thanks.
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[personal profile] cyprinella 2018-12-30 03:25 pm (UTC)(link)
One of the reasons I love Hannibal (which utterly grosses out my husband) is because it's got all of the horror tropes I love and none of the sexual violence (except the one episode that I never rewatch and that was really reproductive violence). So like, it's doable! But so rare. :(
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[personal profile] hopelesse 2018-12-30 04:57 pm (UTC)(link)
Argh YES! Placing the burden on individuals for what is so clearly a systemic problem is never going to be an effective solution. Individuals can (and should!) do what they can, but the root causes are very far from individual influence or control.
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[personal profile] chocolatepot 2018-12-30 05:37 pm (UTC)(link)
But one of the really maddening things about Tumblr is like this wilfull blindness to look at anything historical (because Old stuff = Conservative and = Bad?) and to try to reinvent the wheel with building blocks.

Yes! Except that there's a weird dichotomy in Tumblr culture where you can only choose between "everything historical was bad and oppressive, don't look at it unless you're going to condemn" and "you know that thing from history? Actually it was completely amazing and feminist and perfect and pure." Use whichever supports your purpose.
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[personal profile] chocolatepot 2018-12-30 06:22 pm (UTC)(link)
I see a lot of black and white thinking bound up in "hopepunk". A lot of "I like it, and I found value in it, therefore it is optimistic and hopepunk, and self-care is hopepunk, and so are kittens and memes".

Definitely agree. That's the core of The Tumblr Problem, as I see it - "I found value in it, therefore it is objectively good." (Combined with "I'm radical because I'm the viewpoint character.") It's not okay to enjoy something just because it speaks to you personally/hits tropes you enjoy, and to understand when other people don't or to even agree with some of the criticisms without seeing yourself as Nobly Accepting That Your Fave Is Problematic. Your comfort reading has no value unless you position it as inherently better than other people's comfort reading.

(Also, I agree with what you said about the women in your Goblin Emperor review. Much as I enjoy the book, I would have enjoyed it more if that had been handled better, even if just with the love interest.)
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[personal profile] sugar_fey 2018-12-30 08:59 pm (UTC)(link)
I find there's something so satisfying about a happy or bittersweet ending that feels earned. Equally, a deliberately unsatisfying ending can also be very effective in the hands of a skilful writer. I recently finished a novel called 'The Break' by Katherena Vermette, and that novel is incredibly depressing and bleak because it deals with institutionalised racism towards First Nations Canadian peoples and how the cycles of abuse and addiction affect multiple generations. A novel like that can't be 'wholesome' or 'comfy,' nor should it be. You should feel uncomfortable reading it. What made the darkness bearable is the love between many of the characters, even in the most horrendous of circumstances.

I guess I don't like the notion that reading should always be a 'comfy' experience. Part of why I read is to expose myself to varying perspectives and experiences in the world, and sometimes that means reading something that challenges my worldview or makes me feel uncomfortable. I don't think you should keep reading something that makes you miserable if you don't want to (I've certainly nope'd out of many a book for various reasons), but to say that everything should be 'wholesome' feels to me like covering your ears and going "LALALA NOT LISTENING" about the state of the world.

Edit: I also feel like something is wrong with me sometimes when I see absolutist statements on tumblr. Stuff like "oh, women want to see soft boys in sweaters!" Uh, no, give me shirtless Chris Hemsworth, please. Or how it's hard to find F/F stuff that isn't soft, pastel (and mostly white) aesthetic. Argh, give me complex or difficult relationships between women, please!
Edited 2018-12-30 21:04 (UTC)

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