lizbee | I know Sherlock fandom is actually the worst, but...

...I would still take all the flailing about THE PUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUURITY OF THE HOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOLMES CANOOOOOOOOOOOOON seriously if the people complaining about Elementary were equally concerned about the Japanese series where Holmes is a cat.

I was thinking about the way Sherlock fandom seems to have a serious problem with Asian people existing, and then the apparent occasional tendency of Korean TV executives to commission series by going, "That really successful western series? Let's remake it, but in the Joseon era! HIGH FIVE! Let's go to lunch!" (There's Joseon X-Files, of which the first episode was AMAZING and at some point the House o'Squid will WATCH THE REST, and then there's CSI Joseon, and in fairness, I don't think either of those are the official translations of the series titles, BUT STILL.)

I googled for "Joseon Sherlock", and did find a rather good-looking cable series about "Korea's Sherlock Holmes" (actually based on a real historical figure), and a 2011 movie. English subs for the cable series don't seem to exist, but I am partway through watching Detective K and the Secret of the Virtuous Widow, and it is pretty great. (It has a lot of the tone of the Ritchie Holmes movies, but more rural and ... you know, not actually based on Conan Doyle. Pros: slapstick, bromance, DOGGIES, a genuinely interesting mystery, an astonishingly beautiful woman in a partially transparent hanbok; cons: the female characters are pretty slight, the fansubs are a bit dodgy in places. But it had a limited release in the US, so there should be a proper DVD with proper subs to be had in exchange for money.)

In conclusion, there should be more shows about cats solving crime.

Current Mood: amused
Crossposts: http://lizbee.livejournal.com/1235931.html

Threaded | Top-Level Comments Only

From:

amberfox

If you haven't seen DETECTIVE DEE AND THE MYSTERY OF THE PHANTOM FLAME, you should look it up.

http://vjmorton.wordpress.com/2010/09/25/tiff-10-capsules-day-9/

From:

lizbee

I saw it a few months ago, and really liked it aside from the fridging of the female lead.

(Also, that blog post is TOTALLY WRONG about Holmes not engaging in rough sports. HE WAS A GREAT LOSS TO THE BOXING COMMUNITY BUT HE NEEDED TO SAVE HIS HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAANDS /ACD paraphrase.)

From:

amberfox

Yeah, it could have been a lot better. I have a huge <3 for any movie featuring someone roundhouse kicking a deer in the head, though. I didn't know that before I saw this movie. ^_^

And I remember that. Holmes gets them past a gatekeeper by reminiscing about a boxing match they'd done and just how solidly he had handed the other guy his ears, if I remember correctly. (I should check the details, but I'm too lazy to look it up at 3am.) It was the story with the poison darts and the pygmy... Sign of the Four! That's it. (Go, me!)

From:

lizbee

I have a huge <3 for any movie featuring someone roundhouse kicking a deer in the head, though. I didn't know that before I saw this movie. ^_^

I KNOW! Why isn't there more of that in modern cinema?!

From:

the_grynne

The canon will survive JLM, although I can't see him as Holmes myself - I guess because I don't sense anything particular "outsider" or eccentric about him. Lucy Liu as Watson, though, I rather like the look of.

From:

magister

My first thought is that it reminds me of Blazing Saddles with Mongo punching out a horse. My secod thought is that I only seem to have a first thought, presumably because of time of day.

From:

magister

To be honest, I'd respect all the flailing a lot more if people pointed out that the Moffat/Gatiss portrayal of Holmes isn't terribly faithful to the Doyle version. Doyle's Holmes is capable of fitting in to society. He frequently doesn't, but it's by choice. Watson often comments on how charming Holmes can be and how considerate he can be of clients. Moffat's Holmes doesn't understand how good manners work in society and so he doesn't bother with them. Doyle's Holmes would have bust a gut to work out how to be polite, because he's Sherlock Bloody Holmes and not understanding something like that would have driven him up the wall. Yes, he's often rude to people, but he knows that he's being rude and it's something he does deliberately.

As for Elementary, I'll wait and see what it's like. And I'm hoping that at some point in some series we get a female Holmes. Particularly if they cast Tamsin Greig.

From:

magister

Yeah. In Study in Scarlet, when Watson's trying to work out what Holmes actually does for a living, he makes a list of his skills,which include boxing, stick fighting and swordplay. Plus later, Holmes ascribes his defeat of Moriarty at Reichenbach to his knowledge of the Japanese martial art baritsu. (Doyle not being a big one for research, it was actually called Bartitsu and was a combination of several martial arts devised by an English engineer called Barton Wright, who'd spent time in Japan). Personally, I thought Holmes going bare knuckle boxing in the Ritchie films was quite a clever replacement for cocaine use - it's something that can be shown in a 12 cert film an it has the same element of risk and self-destructiveness.

From:

wolfy_writing

To be honest, I'd respect all the flailing a lot more if people pointed out that the Moffat/Gatiss portrayal of Holmes isn't terribly faithful to the Doyle version.

This. A lot of people pretend like the adaptations they enjoy which change a lot somehow don't count as 'violating the purity of Holmes canon', while stuff they don't like (or, in the case of Elementary, haven't seen but have the impression they won't like) is RUINING HOLMES FOREVER. Which really seems to be a way of using "not like the original" as a cover for their personal taste.

(I'm sort of ambivalent about Elementary, and will wait to see what people think after they've run an episode or two, and the discussion is no longer primarily about whether it's okay to have Watson be an Asian woman.)

From:

innerbrat

Do the Joseon X-Files and CSI Joseon have cross dressing?

If not, WHY NOT?

From:

crossedwires

There was also a US series in which Holmes and Watson are mice!

From:

wolfy_writing

The Great Mouse Detective? I loved that!

From:

sabra_n

I know exactly how ridiculous this sounds, but I remember thinking when I first watched Sherlock that this was a post-House Holmes. (Except House never pretended to be anything but the loosest of loose takes on Conan Doyle, if that.)

So basically, maybe I'd listen more to the flailing if Sherlock wasn't the twenty billionth Holmes or Holmes variant out there.

From:

infiniteviking

Valid reasons not to like Lucy Liu as Watson: if her characterization has nothing to do with Doyle's Watson and/or is poorly written.

Invalid reasons: WEH WHY IS SHE AN ASIAN CHICK.

I haven't even seen the trailer because I'm just not interested enough in ~Sherlock: Now Comes In American!~ right now, but gosh.

From:

liviapenn

I have had to unfollow a couple of fanart tumblrs I really used to like. The show isn't even out yet, guys, you don't need to post hating it SEVERAL TIMES A DAY. "Oh but I just can't take that she's subordinate to Holmes!! It's against my feminist principles!" Ugh, you know I was following you two weeks ago when the problem was "OMG EW A GIRL," right? I still remember that actually--!

From:

liviapenn

oh, and also, apparently Sherlock Holmes takeoffs used to be super popular in 19th-century Chinese pulp magazines (link goes to a PDF article by Jess Nevins called "Sherlock Holmes vs. The Fox Woman: A Brief Tour of Chinese Pulp") So if Gatiss and Moffat can say that "all previous versions of Sherlock Holmes are canon," to the extent of swiping dialogue from at least one of the Rathbone-era adaptations set in the 1940s, then maybe these are canon too. So why not a Chinese Watson?

From:

lizbee

To be honest, I'd respect all the flailing a lot more if people pointed out that the Moffat/Gatiss portrayal of Holmes isn't terribly faithful to the Doyle version.

YES. Even if I liked Sherlock, which I don't particularly, I'm a bit tired of seeing ACD meta that starts off, "As we all know, Holmes is a sociopath..."

From:

lizbee

"Oh but I just can't take that she's subordinate to Holmes!! It's against my feminist principles!"

Yeah, and professional relationships, even subordinate ones, are SO MUCH LESS HEALTHY than Sherlock's "Just lie down in front of this door, John, my boots are muddy" version.

From:

lizbee

That PDF is going STRAIGHT on my iPad for reading!

From:

magister

Sad thing is, it's now going to be a bloody age till we get another faithful series of Holmes adaptations, if it ever happens. It's getting on for 20 years since the Jeremy Brett series ended. I always thought Tim McInnerney'd be good, but I think it's a bit late now.

From:

lizbee

Yeah, I wanted to see Jason Isaacs have a crack at it.

(I have this problem where I find Brett unwatchable. It's purely personal opinion, I just ... can't do it.)

From:

loafing_oaf

I don't have a real comment to make here other than that I had no interest in this until I saw the reaction from many Sherlock fans, and now I see it has POC in main roles I am intrigued. I just really wanted to comment on your deliciously appropriate Data icon :)

From:

liviapenn

I can't even "word" this enough. Dear 80% of BBC Sherlock fandom, you LOVE unhealthy subordinate Holmes/Watson, to the point of making canon!John into this fanon!Donna Reed character who does ALL the shopping and laundry and rubbing Sherlock's head when he has a headache and cooking Sherlock's favorite meals and doing everything but zooming the fork full of food into his mouth going "brrrrrmmm here comes the airplane" to make sure he eats. And that's before they're even sleeping together... If I'm gonna have that relationship with a guy, damn right I want it to come with a dental plan and the ability to give two weeks' notice.

(Also, in the "Elementary" trailer, towards the end, when Lucy!Watson tells Jonny!Holmes "you have to stop shutting me out, I want to be part of this," and Jonny!Holmes is like "oh. Well actually you're kind of good at this--" how is that "ughhh she's going to be subordinate to him forever?" That is totally a scene I have seen in Sherlock fic TONS of times. "Sherlock, you have to stop being a dick and LET ME BE YOUR PARTNER, not your sidekick." And they're giving it to us in the pilot! I'm on board with that.)

From:

rj_anderson

I keep forgetting we have this thing in common. It soothes my soul to be reminded of it, because I always feel I have to apologize and utter many qualifications before I dare to say that I can't stand to watch Brett.

From:

rj_anderson

Oh my word, that "brrrrrrmmmm here comes the airplane" line practically put me on the FLOOR. Genius.

From:

pearwaldorf

THERE IS JOSEON-ERA X-FILES? You tell me about so many things that I should know about.

Also I have been hearing bits and pieces about the latest Sherlock kerfuffle and augh. I hate how fandom seems to keep having the same arguments over and over and how people just keep talking past each other.

(Thanks for the Muppet/Avengers crossover links, btw. I have put them on my phone for reading. Hopefully I will not laugh too much on the bus.)

From:

melengro

Have you seen the Soviet Holmes series? It's much, much better than that question-sentence makes it sound. Vasily Livanov is one of the two Holmes actors who's portrayed in the Holmes museum in Baker Street, along with Brett.

From:

liviapenn

It was really hard for me to think of some super-enabling coddling thing that John has NOT done for Sherlock in fanfic. Really, really hard!

From:

magister

I love the Brett series up to Hound of the Baskervilles. After that, it's a combination of Brett's illness becoming increasingly apparent and a greater tendancy to try to improve on what Conan Doyle wrote that puts me off. On the other hand, I can see that his performance could be divisive.

So what is it that doesn't work for you about him?

From:

rj_anderson

Well, just to give some background here, I started my Sherlock obsession in my mid-teens thanks to YOUNG SHERLOCK HOLMES and spent the next few years familiarizing myself with the canon and every related essay and pastiche I could get my hands on.

So by the time I first saw the Granada series, my personal mental picture of Holmes was pretty firmly established... and Brett, alas, was not it. Not that I don't fully recognize Brett as a great actor who poured himself into that role (and I loved all the Paget homages), but I found him too twitchy, high-strung and neurotic to be my Holmes. Even, perhaps, too delicate -- and I'm talking about early episodes, not the later ones when he was clearly in poor health. Also, I like my Holmes to gangle and Brett is physically incapable of gangling.

I do like Cumberbatch's portrayal, on the other hand -- although his face is not especially Holmesian to me, I think the movement of the story to the modern world was enough to convince my brain that an enormous nose was not an essential requirement. And I find some interest and sympathy with the idea of Holmes as a sociopath who has to be taught to understand and relate to people on an emotional level, even if that's a fairly extreme take on his personality in canon.

The best match for my mental Holmes, though, is probably John Wood. It still drives me crazy that there are no recordings of his actual performance in the Gillette play, but many who saw it still consider him one of the best Holmeses ever, and having seen him in other movies I can believe it.

From:

rj_anderson

Sherlock needs to be kicked to the curb on a regular basis, in my view. So I am not having with any of that nonsense. Even the Buckingham Palace scene makes me faintly nauseated, amusing as it was in other respects.

As of Reichenbach, though, Molly wins at everything. I want the show to go on vindicating her point of view and letting her show Sherlock exactly how many ways he is wrong and needs to change, since John seems to have been largely rendered incapable of doing it...

That being said, though, I think Martin Freeman is the bomb and I really love about 80% of the BBC Sherlock. It's just that twenty percent of GAAAAAAAAH WHAT ARE YOU ALL DOING WHY IS NOBODY CALLING SHERLOCK ON THIS APPALLING BEHAVIOUR. I can't believe John didn't kill him after HOUNDS, frankly. If he'd pulled that stunt on me, our relationship would have been over.

From:

liviapenn

Even the Buckingham Palace scene makes me faintly nauseated, amusing as it was in other respects.

Going to Buckingham Palace in a sheet, you mean? Hm, for some reason that didn't really go on my list of "bad Sherlock behavior," maybe because it's aimed at Mycroft... if I had Mycroft as a brother, I probably wouldn't even have walked there under my own power. I'd have just gone limp and had them drag me out like a protester. You can't give Mycroft an inch!

It's just that twenty percent of GAAAAAAAAH WHAT ARE YOU ALL DOING WHY IS NOBODY CALLING SHERLOCK ON THIS APPALLING BEHAVIOUR.

And of course, Sherlock being a dick ISN'T EVEN CANON. "But, but, being smarter than everyone else gives me a license to say whatever horrible thing I want, and bully and manipulate everyone around me." Ugh, why do people keep buying into these protagonists.

From:

magister

Yeah, I can see that - Brett is a bit highly strung and all over the place, although that's one of the things that work for me about his portrayal. The best Holmes & Watson for me are Clive Merrison and Michael Williams from the BBC Radio 4 dramatizations.

Of people I want to see play Holmes, Alan Rickman's probably too old now, but would still be fun to watch. Still want to see Tamsin Greig as a female Holmes - or Frances de la Tour.

As a side note - did you know Matt Smith auditioned for Watson oposite Benedict Cumberbatch? It's apparantly how he ended up auditioning for the Doctor.