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Is it ever actually said, in the show (stuff Bryan and Mike say in interviews only counts if I like it) that Ursa is not a firebender?

Because I keep seeing it come up, but I don't remember anything about it in her (very brief) appearances, and it doesn't make sense to me. I can't imagine Azulon letting even a second son marry a non-bender, or Ozai being willing to do it. And in any case, she's Roku's granddaughter and Azula's mother. I'm pretty sure she can light a match, y'know?

This week's AtLA obsessions: Ursa and Azula. Is there any Azula redemption fic? It seems like there should be -- I mean, there's a whole massive Zhao redemption comic, and on the whole I'd say his crimes have greater spiritual consquences than Azula's. But she is a girl, and that's a taint that no amount of cleansing can remove.

(My other whim, for schmoopy Ursa/Hakoda fic, was somehow answered. Only the fic is too schmoopy. I NEED A PROPER BALANCE, PEOPLE! MY WHIMS, CATER TO THEM! Or I'll have to write the damn thing myself. And we all know how that ends up.)

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I have a feeling that any redemption fic about Azula would only weaken her character. She'd have to have a complete change of how she sees the world and her place in it which, of course, is IN CHARGE. I'd like a redemption fic where she's faking it to manipulate her way back onto the throne! :)

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I guess the question is, how much of Azula's, um, emotional/moral dysfunction is natural to her personality, and how much is the result of Ozai being the Worst Father Since The Greek God Who Ate His Children? I tend to go back and forth; her early cruelty suggests it's natural, but had she been raised in a different environment, it might have been channeled into healthier directions.

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hmm, I have no idea. Her talent at leadership, let alone bending is probably blocking me from seeing her in a different situation. She seems so natural at it, I can see her being less cruel after a different childhood but she'd still want to do everything her way. It'd have to be pretty damn epic.

I'm not certain bending is necessarily passed through families. I don't think Toph's parents are benders, and she's the greatest earthbender ever. Maybe being Roku's grandaughter was enough. I think it's canon that all Ang's people are benders isn't it? Not all the fire nation are but I'm going to assume it's a fair chunk, not like Waterbenders and the slightly more numerous earthbenders.

Maybe it's like Squibs and if you have too many benders in one family it'll turn off?

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"I'm not certain bending is necessarily passed through families. I don't think Toph's parents are benders, and she's the greatest earthbender ever. Maybe being Roku's grandaughter was enough. I think it's canon that all Aang's people are benders isn't it? Not all the fire nation are but I'm going to assume it's a fair chunk, not like Waterbenders and the slightly more numerous earthbenders."

That's true. And Word of God says that bending isn't a genetic trait. Which I don't actually believe, but at least they haven't repeated JKR's mistake of trying to actually bring in proper science.

I love how well Avatar maps onto HP. One day, Hermione and Katara will overcome the hindrance of fictionality and take over the world. For its own good, of course.

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Every time I see that icon of yours I get the 'found wanting' quote from A Knight's Tale.

I dread the day someone at Marvel tries to explain mutants with 'science'. Or that the Stargate people try to come up with something other than vague in canon handwaving at why everyone speaks English.

I for one, welcome our new sensible overlords. :)

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NEVER EXPLAIN ANYTHING. If anyone asks, a wizard did it. Or a giant turtle.

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Or The Ancients. They do lots of stuff. In several fandoms too! They die and leave a lot of stuff just hanging around!

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Didn't they say that bending ability is connected to spirituality or something? So since all airbenders are monks and nuns, they're all at least somewhat able to bend, whereas in other nations it's a minority trait.

...Yeah, I'm gonna leave that idea now.

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Well, Toph's awesomosity is not a result of an innate awesome talent she was born with, but but because of her unique style of bending that she learned direct from the source. It's how she bends, not the power of her bending.

Actually in most cases, it seems to be how they're taught and the style they use that is important. Zuko vs Azula and Katara's crazy talents being the exception, rather than the rule.

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No, I think that even holds true for Zuko and Azula. They're taught to use rage, and that falls dismally flat for Zukes in third season until he does his shiny dragon magic dance and learns to do it properly, and then he's Super Awesome again, right? So that kinna makes sense to me.

And all I ask in fiction is "kinna makes sense" really.

Toph's awesomeosity defies description.

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So... yeah. I guess bending is a binary condition not a talent scale, and it's what you do with bending that's important.

Unless you're shiny magical Katara.

I wish I had icon space on DW. FAIL.

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Maybe it's her hair loopies that give her great power. Or her hope! The power of hope, and stuff.

Yeah, I got nothing. Hey, I found that ipod I meant to send you like a thousand years ago. Are you still ipodless? I have your new address!

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I have an iPod! It turned out not to be broken.

but thank you for the intention. ILU.

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bats-eye.livejournal.com

I always though Katara just really really tried hard in training. And is just a born fighter. I think she's a bit like Harry Potter, where she's a tough opponent as a bender just cos she's a scrapper and would be a tough opponent in any kind of fight.

Like I always love how in her duel with Pakku, where she's clearly massively overpowered, she gets close and tries to actually punch him instead.

And she out thinks Azula more than anything.

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Yeah, that's my take on her skills as well. She's a strong bender, which isn't apparent at first because she's so untrained, but it's more that she's tough, she's a good tactician, and she wants to learn ALL THE THINGS. Except bloodbending. (But give her a few years, she'll come up with a medical application for that as well.)

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Yup, Iro was trying to teach him properly but all he wanted was to be as flashy as Azula.

Wasn't Katara kinda OK and average, although self taught, until she was literally forced to learn blood bending?

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wolfy_writing

I think redemption of Azula could be interesting. Tricky to do well (redemption-fic are notoriously prone to sucking the awesome out of characters), but if someone had a good feel for her, it could be amazing!

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Yeah, I don't actually know how to go about it, but I think it's potentially really interesting. What's the point in suffering a total breakdown and apparent personality disintegration if you don't come out of it a better person?

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Ooh! *Raises hand in class* (also, ahem, hi) - I was just talking about the non-bending Ursa issue on my journal, and saying that the reason I can never imagine her as a bender is that their entire take on her was so very much a matter of 'here is the docile noble wife mama-bear who lives for her children (or, well, at least one of them) and will also kill for them' that seeing her do something as flashy as firebending is beyond me. But then they also went and made all the Fire royals (apart from Zuko for most of the show, oh Zuko) super-awesome benders, which unless we're meant to assume they're blessed by Agni or something suggests breeding for fieryness and confuses the issue no end. But anyway! Sadly I too have found no decent Azula-redemption fic. Alas. I feel your explanation may be the correct one, as well, gah.

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"I was just talking about the non-bending Ursa issue on my journal, and saying that the reason I can never imagine her as a bender is that their entire take on her was so very much a matter of 'here is the docile noble wife mama-bear who lives for her children (or, well, at least one of them) and will also kill for them' that seeing her do something as flashy as firebending is beyond me."

I have this serious weakness for stories about women who grow up being told that they're powerless and weak, and believing it, right up until the day they're pushed to the brink and discover just how strong and powerful they are. So for that reason, I'm really drawn to the idea of Ursa, even though she never appeared outside of her children's unreliable memories and hallucinations.

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right up until the day they're pushed to the brink and discover just how strong and powerful they are

Oh, for reals, me too. And obviously it's canon that Ursa was pretty damn ruthless when she had to be, and we do only see her through Zuko's rose-tinted memories and Azula's glass-o-conscience - I just can't dissociate my image of her from what we see there (hmm - not sure what this reveals about my general assumptions re wives n' mothers in fiction...). But I would love to read about Ursa: fearsome bender!

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Ursa's story also ties into my other great kink, for people who do terrible things for what they hope are the right reasons, and then have to live with the consequences.

(Oh, Zuko.)

"(hmm - not sure what this reveals about my general assumptions re wives n' mothers in fiction...)"

I think it reveals at least as much about the general portrayal of wives 'n' mothers in fiction. An episode where, say, the gAang encountered Ursa without realising who she was would have provided a whole different perspective. Or perspectives.

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I think it reveals at least as much about the general portrayal of wives 'n' mothers in fiction.

INDEED. Poor Ursa. Poor Kya. Oh Avatar, you and your missing mums, whyyyyy. And the Gaang meeting Ursa idea also calls for fic!

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YES PLEASE.

(What, demanding fic totally counts as a worthwhile contribution to the thread.)

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I ... it has never occurred to me that Ursa wouldn't have been a bender. Is that a thing now? These crazy kids.

Can I have an Old Mama Fandom hat?

also: And we all know how that ends up.

IT ENDS UP EXCELLENTLY. EXCELLENTLY.

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"I ... it has never occurred to me that Ursa wouldn't have been a bender. Is that a thing now? These crazy kids."

Yeah, apparently. A couple of the wikis etc were like, "Ursa. Powers: NONE." And I was like, SCREW YOU, MAN! JUST BECAUSE SHE'S NOT CHUCKING LIGHTNING AROUND DOESN'T MEAN SHE'S NOT WITHOUT HER OWN MAD SKILLZ.

"IT ENDS UP EXCELLENTLY. EXCELLENTLY."

NO ONE WILL WANT TO READ MY FIC ABOUT URSA AND HAKODA SNEAKING AROUND HAVING AN AFFAIR IN THE NORTHERN WATER TRIBE CITY.

Except Batu, and he'd only read it so he could tease Hakoda.

I have loved your icon for so many years. Learning that it's Iroh only makes it better.

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FIC ABOUT URSA AND HAKODA SNEAKING AROUND HAVING AN AFFAIR IN THE NORTHERN WATER TRIBE CITY. GIVE IT TO ME OMG. GIVE IT TO ME RIGHT NOW. IT IS VERY IMPORTANT. OTHERWISE YOU MAY DIE.

Man, I always figured the Fire Nation royals were way, way too inbred not to have firebenders for every possible parental influence ever. I don't know if it's canon or fanon that only the royal family (and Zhao, who could totally be related) have the gold eyes, but whichever, that clearly means that firebenders are inbred.

Then again, Ursa's one of those silly wimmens, and they don't need to have powers anyway, I guess. (Azula just tried to kill me inside my head.)

IT IS THE BEST ICON. APPROPRIATE IN EVERY SITUATION.

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"FIC ABOUT URSA AND HAKODA SNEAKING AROUND HAVING AN AFFAIR IN THE NORTHERN WATER TRIBE CITY. GIVE IT TO ME OMG. GIVE IT TO ME RIGHT NOW. IT IS VERY IMPORTANT. OTHERWISE YOU MAY DIE."

IMAGINE WHAT SOKKA AND ZUKO WOULD SAY WHEN THEY FOUND OUT.

IMAGINE WHAT FACES THEY WOULD PULL.

While, I guess, Katara would be like, "Yeah, I was a bit weirded out at first, and of course I like to compete with Zuko for mother issues, but let's talk about the fact that my best beloved is only just entering puberty. Now that keeps me up at night."

"I don't know if it's canon or fanon that only the royal family (and Zhao, who could totally be related) have the gold eyes, but whichever, that clearly means that firebenders are inbred."

I suddenly don't know if it's fanon or canon either! HOLD ME!

But yeah, I figure that the upper echelons of Fire Nation society are probably lacking a few branches in their family trees. Which would, come to think of it, explain a lot about Azula, too.

"Then again, Ursa's one of those silly wimmens, and they don't need to have powers anyway, I guess. (Azula just tried to kill me inside my head.)"

Yeah, this is a universe where even the women who don't have magical spirit powers can kill you with fans, fingers and cutlery.

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How obvious is it that Zhao is like, Ozai and Iroh's cousin. AZULON'S OTHER GRANDSON.

No wonder he gots the issues.

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I totally meant Sozon, not Azulon. You knew what I meant.

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I totally did, it's OK. Zhao is the BITTEREST NEARLY-COUSIN EVER.

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This has made me think. If they are all crazy inbred royals, wouldn't there be a large element of arranging marriages? Her not being a bender is irrelevant in the face of all those deals that went on after she was born?

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Possibly? I don't know; a lot of European arranged marriages would fall by the wayside if one of the kids grew up to be the wrong religion or something. I don't know about the systems in any Asian cultures, though.

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one of those silly wimmens, and they don't need to have powers anyway

In my head, if she had powers, it would have to be that she doesn't use them in killing her father in law because she learnt the non-anger version? She doesn't turn up that much more and it's the only scene she'd use it in really. Plus she may not believe she has the power to fight him with firebending and win. I don't think she'd like to use bending to kill.

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Oh, I'm totally down with her knifing him. I kind of like that idea. Or poison, or something. You're right, she doesn't seem like the vicious bending would do it for her. Going on what we know, anyway.

I think she should have married Iroh. THEY WOULD HAVE RULED SO WELL.

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Yeah, but Iroh should marry everyone. EVERYONE.

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YES. CANNOT LEAVE GRAN GRAN OUT!

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She was probably taught by her parent who was taught by Roku!

I have to say, for inbred royals, they sure have pretty kids. THEY WOULD HAVE INSTITUTED MANDATORY TEA AND CUDDLE BREAKS NATION WIDE. THEIR KIDS WOULD HAVE BEEN SO DAMN CUTE.

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juliekarasik

If you're looking for Azula redemption stuff, I'd recommend The Heart of Fire Trilogy:
http://www.fanfiction.net/s/4834864/1/Heart_of_Fire
http://www.fanfiction.net/s/5010226/1/Path_of_Fire
http://www.fanfiction.net/s/5248250/1/Soul_of_Fire

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Thanks!

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Oh, I have to jump in and recommend the heck out of that fic. I love the trilogy. The story doesn't give Azula an easy way out and I love the Heart and Path of Fire a *lot*, Soul was good but I thought suffered by being the end of the trilogy but still great one to read!

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I have vague ideas of a cracky crossover into something totally random(*) where there's an Evil Overlord who Azula decides she doesn't like, and so she joins forces with the good guys and is awesome but still actually evil deep down and saves the day despite herself.

EDIT: Wait, the reason it's making me think of DA:O is that I'm halfway through a DA:O fic along vaguely similar lines. Maybe I should finish that first...

(*)My first thought is of course "Dragon Age: Origins" because that's my answer to everything. But Azula vs the Master could be pretty cool.

Edited Date: 2010-09-13 01:45 pm (UTC)

From:

bats-eye.livejournal.com

If I remember my post-show plunge into ff.net correctly, there's loads and loads of Azula redemption fic. Unfortunately, none of the ones I found were actually any good.

Also a surprisingly large percentage of them paired her with Haru (the earthbending kid with the comedy mustache) which proves once again that I will never understand fandom.

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Also a surprisingly large percentage of them paired her with Haru

HAHAHA. I, UM, THINK THERE IS AN EXPLANATION FOR THAT.

I mean, an explanation of sorts. Oh fandom, never knowingly under-literal-minded.

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Fandom: never one to miss a really obvious joke, amiright?

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There is at least some Azula redemption fic (it's not usually very good but it does exist. Some of it IS pretty okay but I'm not sure where exactly I found it), and quite a few fans of/people who are interested in Azula, but for whatever reason these people do not seem to be a fic-inclined lot.

Azula is much more liked or at least respected than a similar character would be in I think most other fandoms.

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bats-eye.livejournal.com

Yeah, from what I've seen Azula's widely loved (for a definition of loved that mostly means 'thought of as a great character'.)

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I read an Azula/Sokka fic which you can find through delicious, which actually I really enjoyed except for that it was a redemption fic. It's quite a common theme! I don't know, I love Azula at her worst, and I'd love her to sort of meet Toph in the middle or something, but I think only the best possible writer could seduce me into loving a fic about her becoming good in the way that the main cast is good.

e: Found it. I feel like I should point out that I liked it in comparison with most of the rest of Avatar fandom.

Edited Date: 2010-09-13 03:58 pm (UTC)

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Well, the first chapter is pretty amazingly Sokkatastic, but is this going to involve Azula being redeemed through love for Sokka? 'Cause I love me some Sokka, but he's not that amazing.

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It's a WIP, but that's where it looks like it's heading -- or rather, through Sokka's Amazing Combination I Love You You Evil Doofus, Shut Up and Kiss Me and Intensive This Is How To Be A Human Being Therapy.

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It's the Intensive This Is How To Be A Human Being Therapy that I see working, in combination with some event that actually forces her to deal. I don't know; I feel like an Azula redemption is something that should be able to be done well, but I have no idea how.

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I feel like she'd have to be trusted with something huge. Like, actually tasked with running a city, or a military unit, or something. But I can't imagine a circumstance in which she'd be allowed to. ... Well, if Zuko died, I could see Mai thinking it was a good idea, actually, but I would feel bad about fridging Zuko and his little face.

Alternately it could all be c/o Iroh, who I think in a big way (even though he is my favorite) is responsible for the fact that she never had anyone who thought she was valuable but Ozai, and is already well-trained in the assisted redemption/maturation of cranky teens.

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Yeah, I think Iroh really let Azula down. He doesn't really seem to "get" girls (he sent her a doll!), which is understandable for a military man and the father of a son. He returns and tries to make Zuko his surrogate son, while Azula's on her own.

On the other hand, Azula's already well on her way to sociopathy by the time their mother leaves, complete with cruelty to animals and weaker children, so it's not clear whether Iroh could have helped her, or if she'd even let him.

But mostly, I think Iroh just didn't really like Azula, and keeping Zuko in one piece was pretty much a full-time job. A fic where he has to deal with that would be aces.

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I got the distinct feeling that Ursa was not a firebender, but it bugged me for all the reasons you mention--I just don'y know about the Firelord marrying a non-bender (which raises some obstacles for Zuko and Mai, and it's one of the reasons I don't buy them having an arranged marriage as children). IDK.

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infiniteviking

I don't remember that ever being said in the show, and would be surprised if it was true. Why WOULDN'T she be a firebender. B|

If Azula could be redeemed without going sweet and apologetic and Katara-like because ~good girls aren't allowed to be evil~, I'd read that. Come to think of it, both she and Zhao were ruthless in the name of personal glory.

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thedivinegoat

I've just come across a fantastic Azula redemption fic on AO3, I apologise if this has already been recced to you, or you've already found it -

水火 by trascendenza

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I found it, like, an hour ago, and have it open in a tab to read when I get home!

From:

fff haha I came back to this post to link the same thing!

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lizbee

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