Further on the most important element of the next Doctor Who episode, plus a request

[lizbee]

And I've lost the link, but there was also a picture of Jenny with a Silurian woman wearing much the same outfit.

ALL THE ADVENTURES, GUYS.



On a less awesome note, I've been struggling for a few days now to try and come up with a non-wanky way of saying this, but I keep coming back to the same thing:

The squee-harshing in my LJ and DW comments is really getting me down, and I want it to stop.

I went back and forth about whether or not I wanted to say that, because I don't want to be silencing debate or choosing to maintain privilege by ignoring criticism. But it's not really a debate: people come into my posts, and, with or without even acknowledging what I've said, state their contradictory opinions as fact. And then, I've been told on Twitter, people disagree, but feel uncomfortable doing so in a third party's LJ, and then start to feel their own pleasure in the show is wrong, and so they keep silent. That's not a debate, that's a monologue. And it gives me the shits, because when I make my posts, I'm usually happy and squeeful, and within an hour that is inevitably brought crashing down by someone pissing in the metaphorical breakfast cereal.

None of these comments are anon, they all come from people with their own LJs, so they've got their own platforms on which to share opinions. I have a strict practice of not playing the Happiness Patrol when people aren't enjoying something, which means I don't come into personal LJs and tell you to shut up and start smiling. Please have the decency to do the same for me. At the very least, feel free to acknowledge my own opinions before talking back at me.

As for privilege/critique/etc, generally there comes a point where I do want to seek out critique, but I do it in my own time, when I feel ready and have the mental energy to apply myself. There's a meme going around Tumblr at the moment about how there is only one way to watch a problematic show, and if you don't do it right, you're part of the problem. And while there's merit in that, the current right way involves so much energy that, especially now when I'm on the edge of another arthritic flare-up, I'd find an evening of staring at a blank screen more restful than adhering to the strict guidelines of a Tumblr meme.

Also, if even reading discussion re: fail, *isms etc that have actually aired takes more energy than I can physically maintain, it takes a whole lot more to get outraged over things which haven't happened yet, which may not happen, are unlikely to happen at all given the nature and audience of the show, and frankly, if you have the time I'm happy for you, but I've got other things to do. And the implicit (or, occasionally, explicit) demand that I justify liking something, or even not hating it, or just hating it less than other people, is ridiculous.

In short, my feeling is this: I know you don't like it, I respect your right, and I don't really care. Except that I seem to be expected to care, and that just makes me cranky. So cranky I spend three whole days brooding on the topic and struggling to articulate the line between healthy debate and disagreement, and ... not.

I have a lot of friends who have either taken their fannish posts behind lock or stopped making them all together. I don't want to do that, but at the same time, there comes a point where the pleasure I get in making the posts is far outweighed by the frustration I feel over the next days.

Comments

[fly_to_dawn]

I totally understand, and I apologize if I've accidentally harshed your squee before. :-/

On a happier note, YAY JENNY. I hope the fact that she gets a promo shot of her own means she gets to play a big part in the story!

[miss_s_b]

:(

[lizbee]

:) ?

[tree_and_leaf]

I am deeply squeeful about that photo of Jenny. And I totally want her waistcoat. And the katana

[magister]

Yay this. I hate feeling stupid for liking something. Some things make me happy. They just do and usually I can't justify why because either I don't know or because once I've taken it apart and understood, then I can't put it back together again. Thanks for posting this.

[sqbr]

First off: Oooh. Ladies with swords in waistcoats ^_^

Second: I do understand what it's like when you feel like you're expected to always be ON and sometimes just need to turn off your brain and do what makes you happy. I would like to avoid making you sad, but it's fairly hard to harsh my squee (though "anyone who likes this Xist thing is Xist" will generally work) and I have trouble figuring out where the lines are for people whose squee is more easily harshed. As I recall this hasn't come up with you but that's possibly just because we tend to squee about the same things, I've inadvertently hurt other people before and it was unpleasant all round. Or maybe those people were more sensitive than you, idk.

So: you'd like people to acknowledge your points, and not state contrary opinions as facts. Fair enough. Are you ok with strongly worded intensely negative opinions that do acknowledge your points and don't claim to be objective fact? And seriously, it's cool if you're not! But I do make those kinds of comments sometimes and am not always good at recognising the difference between squee posts and discussion-inviting meta, so it would be good to know if I should automatically refrain from making them here.

[lizbee]

That's a good question, and the best answer I have at this exact moment is that I've never had a problem with any comment you've ever left.

I'll leave a better answer in an hour or so, after I've eaten.

Now that I have eaten!

[lizbee]

So: you'd like people to acknowledge your points, and not state contrary opinions as facts. Fair enough. Are you ok with strongly worded intensely negative opinions that do acknowledge your points and don't claim to be objective fact?

No, I am. I mean, if I'm going, TRA LA LA THIS IS AMAZING, and someone else comes in and says, "I found X problematic for Y reason," then that's something I'm going to take seriously and regard with interest. And likewise, I don't generally have a problem with Opinions That Aren't The Same As Mine. (Well, sometimes I do, but it's usually a sign I need to take a step back, do something else for a while and maybe stop reading the internet before breakfast.)

I suppose there's just been a lack of respect lately that has really gotten to me. At first I thought I was just being over-sensitive, but then I saw someone pointing to the comments in my posts this week as prime examples of obnoxious squee-harshing.

Re: Now that I have eaten!

[sqbr]

I have eaten several meals in the interim, apologies, my brain sometimes takes a while to cycle back to being up for meta.

Anyway: that makes sense. I think the problem for me is that I express myself more unconfrontationally than most people, and this makes it hard for me to tell the difference between "polite comment expressed more forcefully than I would have said it" and "rudeness".

[cjk1701]

This is not The Jenny, is it? But what a lovely outfit and sword. I wonder if she has a pocket watch.

Er, not in a pocket watch Time Lord way, just to round off the outfit. Although I could totally live with a Time Lord like *that*.

[el_staplador]

*would like it to be Romana*

[tree_and_leaf]

This is how I imagine the Corsair, when she was being female.

[lizbee]

I approve of this idea!

[myniamh]

According ti IMDB it is (http://www.imdb.com/character/ch0027080/) but it also says that 'Jenny'/Mother Of Mine in Family Of Blood is the same character. I'm thinking this is slightly inaccurate.

I'd love it to be The Jenny. Romana III would be great too.

[el_staplador]

Aha. Yes. People do not tend to do this on my journal, because it is not really fannish, but I do recognise this feeling as something I get when reading other people's squee posts, and the comments thereto.

[kerravonsen]

{hugs}

I was reminded today by J of the more old-fashioned idiom for that: "stop raining on my parade".

As I said on twitter, I'm still behind on Who, so I have not witnessed the negative remarks, so I can't really say much about them.

when I'm on the edge of another arthritic flare-up, I'd find an evening of staring at a blank screen more restful than adhering to the strict guidelines of a Tumblr meme.

Oh, yes, I hear you on that. Low energy is not good for the social interactions.

it takes a whole lot more to get outraged over things which haven't happened yet, which may not happen, are unlikely to happen at all given the nature and audience of the show

Oh good Lord, are they really getting OUTRAGED about things that don't exist? (eyeroll) (changes icon to "facepalm" icon)
Can't they go and do something USEFUL instead?

[such_heights]

<3 I hear you on this, totally.

But on another, you're willing to share your new space girlfriend, right? :D

[copracat]

I am SO EXCITED about finding out what Jenny's been doing.

In case you've missed them, my fave Jenny stories

To Her Coy Mistress Lady Christina and Jenny engage in shenanigans

Losses and Discoveries Jenny and Sally Sparrow.

[doyle]

I feel quite shallow at the mo, because while I quite liked Jenny in her perky blonde incarnation that picture rockets my interest level from "yeah, she was all right" to "SPINOFF NOW PLS". And if it's not the same Jenny, I'm with tree_and_leaf: can she be the Corsair? I DON'T CARE IF THEY HAVE TO UNDO THE WHOLE OF THE TIME WAR TO MAKE THIS HAPPEN.

[musesfool]

I get this a lot, too, and in both directions - if I really dislike something, people drop in to tell me I'm wrong and should just watch it again! I would like it more the second time! - and I think part of it is some people just really feel their every thought should be shared, or at least, they don't think you're reading them in their space, so they need to come and tell you in yours.

But I'm always like, "Why did you need to come and tell me how much you hated/loved this thing I loved/hated?" It's especially hilarious when it's just something like, "Oh, I find so and so ridiculously attractive!" Clearly that is a squee post! There is no need for someone to come and say, "I don't get it. He's frog-faced." But they do anyway! (it's like the people who tell you a story is okay but it'd be better if it were X pairing. What even is the point of that?)

Anyway, I'm sorry it's happening to you.

[lizbee]

Is like how you're the only person in the world who doesn't like Castiel, and apparently need to be saved from your own apostasy?

'Cause that's always a good time.

[musesfool]

Exactly like that!

[rembrandtswife]

There's a meme going around Tumblr at the moment about how there is only one way to watch a problematic show, and if you don't do it right, you're part of the problem. And while there's merit in that, the current right way involves so much energy that, especially now when I'm on the edge of another arthritic flare-up, I'd find an evening of staring at a blank screen more restful than adhering to the strict guidelines of a Tumblr meme.

What the hell is this? What is this magical one way, and how we do know what's problematic? Honestly, I am more and more convinced that the chief pleasure many people find in fandom is in spoiling other people's enjoyment. I got that from my mother for years--I don't need it from bitches I don't even *know*.

[nam_jai]

What the hell is this? What is this magical one way, and how we do know what's problematic?

I was wondering the same thing. When I hear there's only one way to watch a problematic show, I can't help but assume the corollary is that we'll all agree on whether a given show is problematic. And that's never going to happen, even if we follow strict Tumblr guidelines. But who knows, maybe if I saw these guidelines, all my doubts would be cleared, and I'd never have to struggle with the gray areas again.

[aria]

Oooh, I hope your space girlfriend is proper Jenny. Or otherwise a Time Lord. Apparently in my brain, hot pseudo-Victorian clothing = Time Lord.

And blar, I am sorry about the squee-harshing. :( That is frustrating! The most bewildering thing to me, though, is the notion of a Tumblr meme that tells you exactly how you're supposed to watch a problematic show. Fandom engagement does not actually work like that! Obviously I don't know exactly what the meme is, but seriously, if you like something despite knowing it's problematic, squee anyway.

[fyrdrakken]

Elsewhere on my friends list, apocalypsos makes a distinction between "Friday brain" and "Saturday brain" (though I think the terms may have changed slightly since the show in question moved from Thursday nights to Fridays): Specifically, the first twenty-four hours she wants her journal to be a squee-only zone, and then after that she's willing to start digging into things that weren't so good, things she wishes the showrunner/writers hadn't done or would change, tallying up instances of misogyny across all the seasons to date, writing fix-it fic, whatever. And on her "Friday brain" squee posts, every so often she'd remind as needed that she doesn't want anyone pissing in her cornflakes (yet) and save the harshing for later. I think the periodic reminders not to harsh her squee were working fairly well for her.

[lizbee]

I think that's quite a good idea, and I may adopt a Sunday/Monday brain method. Although I do still draw a distinction between "that had some issues and I'm concerned about where this is going" and "THAT WAS THE WORST EPISODE EVER AND MOFFAT HAS NO MORAL COMPASS AND ALSO HATES WOMEN", and it's really the latter that I've been getting lately.

I mean, I waited four whole seasons before I decided RTD had a worrying streak of nihilism in his writing!

[fyrdrakken]

Hmm. It's easy to declare a "squee-only zone," but "squee or constructive criticism only" would be tricker, since I have the nagging sense that a lot of the people coming around to express their personal outrage at the current or projected future direction of the show would in fact consider their opinions to be "constructive criticism." And, yeah, what musesfool said above, the thing where people comment with what they said in their own journal because they figure you aren't likely to have read it there and theirs is an opinion worth spreading -- especially if they think you're wrong and need correcting.

I'm not sure how to phrase the guidelines for that. "I'm a fan of this show. I don't need to hear comments in my personal journal about how much you hated everything about it." From a practical standpoint, flocking and filtering your DW posts and eliminating the people demonstrating an ongoing tendency to squee-harshing would probably take care of the problem but would be a certain amount of trouble to set up. You could hold off on it for another week or two and see if your request has any effect on correcting the problem. (Actually, you could hold off a few months, since we've only got one more new ep before the hiatus anyway. Let the problem mull in the back of your mind and see if it's an issue again in the second half of the season.)

[marymac]

Aye, yes, well said, have noticed that. And it puts people (or at least me) off squeeing back at you, because the doom&gloom have descended.

Also I would end up shouting at people in your comments about how them things they are pissed at Moffat for that he hasn't actually done yet? He's not going to do them, due to it being a Saturday Teatime Show sandwiched between SYTHYCD. Some things just ain't gonna happen on BBC1.

[jesuswasbatman]

I have some more qualms because I remember some of the shit that happened in S22, especially the villain's very openly discussed plans for Peri in "Timelash".

[lizbee]

The Sixth Doctor era is special in that, whenever someone says, "THAT COULD NEVER/HAS NEVER HAPPENED ON DOCTOR WHO," it inevitably turns out that it has, and it was probably Six.

I blame Eric Saward.

[marymac]

Six tends to be the reason they don't get let do it now.

On the other hand, the paving slab. Ugh.

[sohotrightnow]

Oh heavens I am now afraid to ask what I missed. Ughhhh fandom why are you so frustrating. >:( And for what it's worth, I don't think you're being unreasonable or flaunting your privilege at all (not least because there's a world of difference between asking someone to please not refer to Female Character X with a gendered slur and simply telling someone that their opinions are bad and they should feel bad).

Also,

There's a meme going around Tumblr at the moment about how there is only one way to watch a problematic show, and if you don't do it right, you're part of the problem.

WHAT. Goodness I am not sorry I'm not caught up on Tumblr post-vacation yet. IDEK how to begin with that.

Anyhoo, tl;dr you are not being unreasonable to ask people to please pee in people's cereal in their own bathroom rather than on your breakfast table, and I hope your poor joints feel better soon! ♥

[lizbee]

WHAT. Goodness I am not sorry I'm not caught up on Tumblr post-vacation yet. IDEK how to begin with that.

It was a really interesting meme -- well, "reblog this if you don't hate kittens", that's a kind of meme -- about how simply acknowledging that your source is problematic is not enough, you also have to actively seek out fanworks that fix the problems, and write them, and also find shows and books that don't have those problems...

And I do a lot of that stuff already, obviously, but put that way it just seemed like so much effort when I'm already running on limited time and energy.

I should go back and find the meme itself. It probably deserves a post of its own.

[jesuswasbatman]

I agree with the "find better stuff" because there is no point constantly watching/reading stuff you find politically repellent (that's why I've given up Joss Whedon crap and why I gave up Patricia D Cornwell years ago). But the "you must write fix-it fic" is... yeah, not everyone actually has the time and literary skill to do that. And I'm more than a bit unhappy about the idea you get among some politicised fans and external academic observers of fandom that all the best/most-interesting fanfic must be stuff that didactically critiques the politics of the source work. It just seems a bit joyless and reductive and instrumental.

[lizbee]

Agreed, and it also marginalises people whose fannish activities don't involve fic. Vidding and art obviously have room for critique, but I'd be curious to see how someone could incorporate it into, say, cosplay.

[jesuswasbatman]

Ooooo. Steampunk Mau-Mau rebels? The Sisters of Pythia here to take revenge on River-hating fanboys?

[lizbee]

Okay, those are both brilliant ideas. And now I want to do a mass Sisterhood of Karn cosplay.

[jesuswasbatman]

And you could probably argue that all the genderswap Doctor cosplays are protesting against the idea that the character has to be always male.

[lizbee]

You're right. In fact, one Australian con allegedly tried to ban crossplay, senior people being made uncomfortable by a six foot man in a Sailor Moon costume. So there's that.

[phosfate]

Isn't a six-foot man in a Sailor Moon costume one of the major reasons for going to cons in the first place?

[wolfy_writing]

It was a really interesting meme -- well, "reblog this if you don't hate kittens", that's a kind of meme -- about how simply acknowledging that your source is problematic is not enough, you also have to actively seek out fanworks that fix the problems, and write them, and also find shows and books that don't have those problems...

Wow, that seems like a massive chore! I like doing fic that addresses the problematic bit sometimes, but inspiration is capricious, and tedious "written because Tumblr says I have to do it or be a bad person" fic Making A Point about whatever issues are in canon are not likely to do any good. If anything, they're going to put people off thinking about social justice stuff at all, because they'll strengthen the whole "Social justice=replacing everything interesting with didactic lectures on prejudice" association. There are already a lot of people who avoid any fic with a whiff of making a social point because they're expecting it to be lectury crap, and this would just make it worse.

(Really, what I think people should do is not actively shout down people highlighting problematic bits, not jumping in all "No, you're wrong!" unless there's actual factual evidence to the contrary, and if they produce fic someone thinks has issues, try to avoid knee-jerk "You just called me racist!" reactions. Beyond that, everyone's free to decide if they want to approach fandom in a SJ way or not, and if so, when and how. It can be effort and take energy and time and it's only fair to acknowledge that.)