So it turns out I have a lot of feelings about Black Widow!

[lizbee]

This is a slow burn, since I saw Avengers, like, two weeks ago, and it was only over the weekend that I found and read a bunch of her solo comic titles.  SHE IS SO GREAT.  (And in volume ... 2, I think, of her 2010 solo title, she has an encounter of the potentially-deadly kind with Elektra, my other Marvel one true love, and it was the best-written and best-drawn and least-sexist version of Elektra I've seen since Frank Miller created her.  (And you know your character is the buttmonkey of the entire universe when the least sexist version is Frank Miller's!)

Sexism also seems to follow Black Widow around, since apparently the solution to the lack of diversity in Avengers is to dismiss the only woman in a sea of white men as "a redhead with D cups" and then call for her replacement.  That post turned up on my Tumblr dash the other day, and frankly I've been a bit mad about it since.  Mostly because I'm a generously endowed redhead, and that was a kick in the self-esteem I really didn't need when I'm feeling bloated and sore and sick post-surgery.  It's always nice to know I have no value in the eyes of other women save their own perceived ideas about my sexuality; that's not sexist at all.  such_heights has more.

ALSO, because Natasha hasn't had a movie, and her turn in Iron Man 2 mostly involved being undercover, people don't know much about her and tend to underestimate her.  People are being wrong about her in the comments to cleolinda's post!  So here's a quick round-up of Natalia Romanoff facts, since apparently reading half a dozen comics makes me an expert:

- her name is in fact Natalia, so stop complaining that Natasha is just a nickname in Russia;
- sure, she has no superpowers, she's just in really good shape for a woman who was born in 1928;
- okay, so her superpowers come from a modified version of the supersoldier serum that created Captain America, which apparently means she's not a real superhero, IDEK, guys;
- the supersoldier serum was given to her by the Winter Soldier, a Soviet superhero who in a previous life was James "Bucky" Barnes, Captain America's best friend;
- they do good brainwashing in the Soviet Union, which Natasha could also tell you about;
- since there are times when her own identity and memory are fluid, like that time her cover identity was a ballerina in the Bolshoi Ballet.  And when the Soviets give you a cover identity, they don't just mean a pair of glasses and a press pass;
- even before she received the serum, she was a trained assassin and spy, and fought on the ground at certain points in WW2.  But remember, she's not a real superhero like Captain America WHY DO YOU DO THIS, FANDOM?
- some of her training was conducted by Logan, aka Wolverine, who apparently spends a lot of time hanging around impressionable young girls, turning them into lethal killing machines, and that's not creepy at all;
- Natasha's first appearance in the Marvel universe, I think, was seducing Tony Stark and seeking to destroy Stark Industries, which made my rewatch of Iron Man 2 last night oddly satisfying in terms of echos and call-backs, and IDEK, that movie's depiction of Natasha was a lot more enjoyable now I know it's not the be-all and end-all of her movie characterisation;
- it was in the '70s that Natasha defected to the West and became linked with the Avengers;
- or, I guess, in movie continuity, SHIELD;
- via espionage or actual attraction, she's been romantically linked with pretty much everyone, but her longest, and current, relationship is with Barnes.  No, not Hawkeye, on account of how he's boring and has a stupid costume in the comics, and isn't even a good archer.  HE DOESN'T LOOK WHERE HE'S AIMING!  THAT'S NOT EVEN COOL-LOOKING, WHEDON, IT'S JUST STUPID.  I don't see the point of Hawkeye ever, least of all in the movie, so finding movieverse Widowfic I like is going to be a challenge;
- so, yeah, if there's a Winter Soldier movie and it doesn't feature Natasha at least a little, I shall be displeased.  Note to self: read that arc. 

IN CONCLUSION, people concern trolling about how they don't think there should be a Widow movie, because she's not a real superheroine, and it wouldn't feel like it was a real part of the Marvel franchise (...huh?), and if it does badly they'll never make another superheroine movie again, so they shouldn't even try, make me unhappy.  (And I know how bad a bad superheroine movie can be!  I saw Elektra on the opening day!  I just missed the part of feminism where women have to work harder to succeed in some fields, so they shouldn't try at all.) 

Comments

[musesfool]

You should read the Winter Soldier arc in Captain America vol. 5 and then the Winter Soldier solo series, which is Bucky and Natasha BEING HOT AND AWESOME together. SO AMAZING. (okay, only 4 issues so far, but shockingly good; they are also awesome as a couple when Bucky becomes Captain America.)

I agree - I wish Captain America 2 is Steve and Natasha hunting Winter Soldier. WITH A LOT OF FEELS EXPLODING EVERYWHERE. (I might ot3 them a little lot.)

[lizbee]

Isn't Sebastian Stan signed for the same amount of movies as Chris Evans? THAT TO ME IS PROMISING.

Captain America vol. 5. Right. TO THE LIBRARY!

[musesfool]

Yes, yes he is.

[such_heights]

*squee!*

[amaresu]

I agree - I wish Captain America 2 is Steve and Natasha hunting Winter Soldier. WITH A LOT OF FEELS EXPLODING EVERYWHERE.

I've so thoroughly convinced myself that this is what it will be that I'm not sure I go could see anything else. I honestly can't think of what else they'd do for the second movie.

[musesfool]

Yeah, I don't know either! The only issue would be who they get to write it.

I mean, I can't see them touching Truth: Red, White and Black with a ten-foot pole (though I would love to get Eli on screen), and I'm not familiar enough with Cap's other big storylines that don't intersect with the Avengers (i.e., Siege, Civil War, etc.).

Winter Soldier is the kind of thing that could have SHIELD and Natasha (taking Sharon Carter's place) in the supporting roles. And Sam Wilson. Oh, god, I would also love to see Sam. Without needing to call in the rest of the Avengers, which I think is an issue for the solo movies now. Why not call in your superpowered friends when you're faced with a serious threat? etc.

[amaresu]

Having Bucky would make so much sense and be the perfect follow up. Without doing a Hydra re-tread.

And if the announcement of a Black Widow origin film it true and gets made it would make perfect sense for her to be in the Captain America movie.

I think with movies it makes sense in the same way the comics do? You don't always need to call in all your friends, or want to if it's something you're capable of taking care of. Or there isn't time. Or everyone else is busy off-world. There's always a reason to not call in your super powered friends.

(Although it's always fun with Spiderman when his super powered friends show up and he's so damn glad the big guns are there.)

[magister]

Have to say, I thought she was cool. About the one thing I had mixed feelings about on the Avengers film was - female characters consist of Black Widow, the woman who Nick Fury gives orders to, Tony Stark's girlfriend and a silhouette of Jenny Agutter on the council Nick Fury reports to. Black Widow gets some very impressive scenes and plays as big a part in the events of the film as any of the male characters, but - well, one of her, rather a lot more of them.

I'd watch a Black Widow film. (Can we have Hulk in it too? Just on the basis that I think any film would be improved with Hulk in it.)

[wolfy_writing]

Well, you know, Elektra was a crappy movie, which means they should never make superhero movies that center on female characters! Granted, Daredevil was also a crappy movie, but that doesn't mean anything about superhero movies centering on male characters, because when a guy fails it's an individual failure, but when a woman fails, it's proof of female inferiority. Which is totally not a sexist double standard at all!

Also, judging a woman by her breast size and declaring her a failure for having big ones is totally feminist and just, because the answer to a culture that pushes a narrow and rigid standard of acceptable appearance on women based on physical attractiveness is to create a different narrow and rigid standard of acceptable physical appearance and judge women for not meeting it!
/sarcasm

[innerbrat]

Is your first link broken or are you talking about the contents of those .rar files?

[lizbee]

How weird! Oh well, fixing it now.

[sabotabby]

I would watch the shit out of a Black Widow movie! (Okay, this surprises no one, I'm sure.) Though I would prefer a Black Widow who could speak Russian with an accent that doesn't make me cringe so much. Ah, Hollywood. I don't even speak Russian and I could tell. I was incredibly annoyed that all of the other important characters got their own movies and Black Widow didn't. (Hawkeye is cute but not really important.)

[lizbee]

I don't even speak Russian and I could tell. I was incredibly annoyed that all of the other important characters got their own movies and Black Widow didn't.

I don't speak Russian OR know much about Soviet history, and I'm pretty sure the comics fail at both massively. Hollywood Russia, birthplace of Pavel Chekov, Natasha Romanoff and lots of terrorists who have British accents.

I was incredibly annoyed that all of the other important characters got their own movies and Black Widow didn't. (Hawkeye is cute but not really important.)

Same! I understand that a studio might be wary of such a likely money-suck as a heroine movie, but at the same time, now that she's been a major supporting character in one Marvel film, and was essentially the backbone of another, it would be really awful if they didn't give Black Widow a chance.

(It also makes me like ScarJo more! Usually she seems to take herself so seriously, while also being kind of bland! But the bits I've seen of her on the promotional tours have been actually funny and likable, almost imbued with personality!)

[terajk]

Disclaimer: I haven't seen Avengers yet and. But:

okay, so her superpowers come from a modified version of the supersoldier serum that created Captain America, which apparently means she's not a real superhero, IDEK, guys;

So, Batman: not a real superhero, then?

Although I can't even follow logic where being exposed to the same serum that gave a dude superpowers does not give a lady superpowers.

[lizbee]

So, Batman: not a real superhero, then?

Don't be silly, he's a man!

Although I can't even follow logic where being exposed to the same serum that gave a dude superpowers does not give a lady superpowers.

Me neither! And certainly Marvel has no qualms about labelling her a superhero (and, fandom, when you're being more sexist than one of the big 2 comics publishers, you have a problem!).

I mean, no, her origin story isn't widely known the way Captain America's is, even within the movie universe itself! But if Steve Rogers' origin wasn't common knowledge in fandom, I don't think he'd be written off as "eye candy in a tight suit who can do some fancy moves".

[chocolatepot]

Blerg, this is probably all confused and rambly, but I'm so tired of the way people have gone from criticizing oversexualized representations of women as taking away from aspects of their personalities or abilities to reducing female characters that are both hot and competent/clever/cool/creative to just their bodies and then saying that the fact that they're hot negates anything else positive about them. Part of me feels like it's a bastardization of feminism, but on the other hand even the RL feminist issues seem to swing into "fighting other women is so much more important than fighting the patriarchy" territory sometimes, e.g. the fight over choice-feminism's validity.

In this case it at least does not seem to be related to shipping, that is mildly reassuring.

[royalmarriage]

Yeah, I don't get why there's any negativity about Black Widow, 'cos I thought she was pretty darned amazing. I'd love her to get her own film so that we can see more of her back story, and more of her kicking ass and being generally awesome. I'm totally new to The Avengers and Marvelverse, but I may well start hunting down some Black Widow graphic novels.

Mind you, I didn't really have a problem with Clint/Hawkeye. But there y'go.

[starlady]

I'm pretty sure Captain America 2 is going to be Winter Soldier, and the Black Widow movie augurs for Natasha being in it.

I love you for making this post, by the way, both for your points and your info. :D

[amaresu]

If they got the same sort of crew on a Black Widow movie that they've had on the rest of the Marvel movies it would be so freaking awesome. I love Natasha. Comics'verse I've never been able to get into the Avengers, but when Natasha is solo she's one of my favorites. Or the bits she showed up for in Secret Avengers* (for Warren Ellis's run; they made Hawkeye the new commander after Ellis left and I stopped reading, because Hawkeye) and the new Winter Solider ongoing is amazing. It's basically Natasha and Bucky being kick ass spies and doing stuff.

I actually liked the Elektra movie, but I have a fondness for crappy B-movies. I grew up on MST3K.

I'm not entirely certain how Black Widow isn't a superhero? She's got powers and she saves the world. It's kinda the definition. Not to mention all of the superheroes that don't have powers. Also she pretty much saved the day with closing the portal and everything. Maybe I need to go see the movie again to fully understand how she's not a superhero? I think that's a sacrifice I'm willing to make.


*Issue #20 in particular. It's one of my favorite single issues ever.

[skalja]

On the slim off chance you're not following fuckyeahblackwidow on Tumblr already, it sounds right up your alley. And, you know, it doesn't hurt that it's one of the best fannish tumblrs around (disclaimer: run by a friend of mine, but I know I'd be thinking so even if I didn't know her).

[skalja]

... Also, wow that is a really amusing choice of random icon. Patsy Walker: also awesome, also has cleavage! Le gasp.

And here's Nomad, who got trained for a bit by Natasha in the comics. She's also a former Bucky, with added Counter-Earth shenanigans.

[musesfool]

♥RIKKI♥

I wanted so much more Rikki-Natasha interaction (and also Bucky-Rikki interaction, because FAMILY. Even if it's from another universe). I refuse to accept that she's dead.

[skalja]

I really didn't see why any of that was necessary. I mean, I guess McKeever thought that since Young Allies had been cancelled he wanted to take them out with a bang? Except, you know, he sorta broke his toys so no one else could play with them...

[ceebee_eebee]

You always manage to make me so happy I avoid fandoms. I am a die-hard DC girl and read very little Marvel but you know who I always try to keep up with? Black Fucking Widow. Because SHE IS AWESOME. I haven't seen her on-screen because, again, not a Marvel girl. But good LORD people. The character is so fucking bad ass it actually hurts. Fucking comics fandom. Always managing to disappoint on so many levels. GAH.

[fox1013]

I have pretty fucking transparently fallen into this fandom head-first because of Natasha, so I was all ready to agree with you on 100% of your points here, but I'm afraid that I can't do that, because FUCK YOU ELEKTRA WAS FUCKING ART.

(Oh god it's the worst I love it so much.)

[amaresu]

I like doing Daredevil-Elektra double features sometimes.

[(Anonymous)]

I love Natasha. I need a BW movie. Marjoire Liu's run on the BW solo title was great. I love Hawkeye too though. My favorite Avengers line-up is Cap's Kooky Quartet. I also enjoyed what Larry Hama did with Elecktra in his Wolverine run.

[deense]

I disagree with your Hawkeye dislike (I've been a fan since I was 8 with the west coast avengers) but other than that, this is a great list.

[lizzieladie]

Oh man, people are complaining about the Black Widow as a terrible female character? I hate fandom sometimes, the only gender issues with that movie were the derth of women and the fact that the women who were there didn't talk to each other. The women they did have were awesomesauce on their own merits.

In other news, Black Widow was around during World War II? Can you, like, explain superhero time to me? Captain America had be frozen for sixty years to be around now, but the Black Widow and Wolverine and apparently Bucky are just hanging around after all that time? Unless there are reboots in the midst of some of this, I am confused.

[(Anonymous)]

The thing is, there's nothing special about the ice. The key point is that Cap survived for sixty years without air, or food, or any of life's other essentials, in an environment that would be lethally cold even with those things. Without aging. Compared to that, just surviving 60 years without aging isn't wildly impressive. Black Widow and The Winter Soldier have slightly less blatant superhuman abilities and their powers are based on a less effective version of the serum Cap got. They, like Cap, routinely survive things that most people just can't, and have lived for the past 60 years without aging. Since all three of them are still around, it's reasonable to assume that the ice was a red herring. The Serum is responsible. One of it's effects was a superhuman healing factor, which in the Marvelverse and many other fantasy/scifi/superhero stuff tends to come with unaging effective immortality.

Wolverine is a mutant born with a superhuman healing factor, and is in fact much, much older than the other three.

[lizzieladie]

Ohhhhh, did not realize that the Black Widow and Bucky also got the serum, and that Wolverine is just older. That was the missing piece and it all makes much more sense now!