![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
lizbeeI should be editing the next episode of Antimatter Pod, but someone is wrong on the internet, so.
First of all, can I just say that it's super weird to me that r/loki is a chill space with memes and fan theories and a minimum of sexism, while Tumblr is a trashfire of misogyny and bad takes? What's up with that?
Sophia Di Martino said something in an interview about Loki having a pretty privileged and comfortable childhood compared with Sylvie, and some fans are very, very angry that the bad lady said their man had a single good day, ever, and it's just a sign that she and the showrunners are plotting to destroy Loki's character and indeed Tom Hiddleston's actual life.
As it happens, I watched Thor again last night. For the second time ever, I should say, and wow, that was certainly a movie. Remember when we were super impressed that there were three whole women in a Marvel movie? To this day I do not understand the purpose of Darcy; my flatmate tells me she's there for comic relief, but that seems unlikely.
Anyway, the thing that Thor makes clear is that Loki's life before he learned the truth about his identity and betrayed Thor/Asgard was ... pretty okay. He had allies, if not close friends. He had his brother's trust, despite the childhood stabbing incidents attested to in Ragnarok. He fought alongside Thor and the Warriors Three and The Only Lady One. He may have been lonely in a crowd, and felt like an outsider, but ... so do lots of people, to be honest.
I don't want to suggest that it was all fun and games, or that Odin and Frigga were good parents. I mean, Odin stole a baby and Frigga went along with it. That is, how shall I put it, bad. And then you have the whole, "Sure, we live in a weirdly patriarchal monarchy, but I'll tell both my sons that they could be kings even though only one of them can actually have the job" thing. Odin makes Sarek look like space dad of the year.
But Loki's choices are his own. He may not have intended to get Thor banished permanently, but he took advantage of it, and the whole "I just found out I'm a Frost Giant and I'm going to use genocide against my own biological people to cope" thing is entirely him. (And Odin. Mate, don't raise the kid you stole to hate his heritage. That's messed up, man.) Loki's a grown god, and there comes a point where he's the one responsible for his decisions and their outcomes. (Marvel tells us that Thanos was manipulating Loki's mind during Avengers, which ... fine, okay, but it's not on-screen canon, and he still made the choice to invade and conquer Earth. The manipulation was about making him malleable to Thanos, not forcing him to do bad things.)
(And Loki, the series, is about him realising that! "I betrayed everyone who ever loved me. I betrayed my father, my brother, my home…" This is the story of Loki finally achieving a shred of meaningful self-awareness -- just enough that he can make a good faith attempt to act differently.)
Compared to all this -- Sylvie was a child when she was stolen (again) from her home, and she grew to adulthood living a fairly marginalised life in the apocalypses of the universe. Loki was lonely? Well, Sylvie was lonely and also in constant danger. From the TVA, from whatever threats exist in her apocalypse refuges.
The thing is, it's not actually a competition. Loki enjoying a childhood of comfort doesn't negate the emotional abuse which underpinned it. Sylvie struggling to survive from a young age doesn't change the fact that she has also made some very, very bad choices and killed a lot of innocent people along the way. She needs a redemption arc as much as him! Every Loki has had a rough life, and every Loki has made bad choices -- the only difference between Sylvie and Loki and the rest* is that they are a tiny bit self-aware, and also very tired of their own shenanigans and failings. And that's where real growth begins.
* I'd put Classic Loki in the self-aware pile, too. And maybe also Lokigator, he seems pretty self-actualised.
First of all, can I just say that it's super weird to me that r/loki is a chill space with memes and fan theories and a minimum of sexism, while Tumblr is a trashfire of misogyny and bad takes? What's up with that?
Sophia Di Martino said something in an interview about Loki having a pretty privileged and comfortable childhood compared with Sylvie, and some fans are very, very angry that the bad lady said their man had a single good day, ever, and it's just a sign that she and the showrunners are plotting to destroy Loki's character and indeed Tom Hiddleston's actual life.
As it happens, I watched Thor again last night. For the second time ever, I should say, and wow, that was certainly a movie. Remember when we were super impressed that there were three whole women in a Marvel movie? To this day I do not understand the purpose of Darcy; my flatmate tells me she's there for comic relief, but that seems unlikely.
Anyway, the thing that Thor makes clear is that Loki's life before he learned the truth about his identity and betrayed Thor/Asgard was ... pretty okay. He had allies, if not close friends. He had his brother's trust, despite the childhood stabbing incidents attested to in Ragnarok. He fought alongside Thor and the Warriors Three and The Only Lady One. He may have been lonely in a crowd, and felt like an outsider, but ... so do lots of people, to be honest.
I don't want to suggest that it was all fun and games, or that Odin and Frigga were good parents. I mean, Odin stole a baby and Frigga went along with it. That is, how shall I put it, bad. And then you have the whole, "Sure, we live in a weirdly patriarchal monarchy, but I'll tell both my sons that they could be kings even though only one of them can actually have the job" thing. Odin makes Sarek look like space dad of the year.
But Loki's choices are his own. He may not have intended to get Thor banished permanently, but he took advantage of it, and the whole "I just found out I'm a Frost Giant and I'm going to use genocide against my own biological people to cope" thing is entirely him. (And Odin. Mate, don't raise the kid you stole to hate his heritage. That's messed up, man.) Loki's a grown god, and there comes a point where he's the one responsible for his decisions and their outcomes. (Marvel tells us that Thanos was manipulating Loki's mind during Avengers, which ... fine, okay, but it's not on-screen canon, and he still made the choice to invade and conquer Earth. The manipulation was about making him malleable to Thanos, not forcing him to do bad things.)
(And Loki, the series, is about him realising that! "I betrayed everyone who ever loved me. I betrayed my father, my brother, my home…" This is the story of Loki finally achieving a shred of meaningful self-awareness -- just enough that he can make a good faith attempt to act differently.)
Compared to all this -- Sylvie was a child when she was stolen (again) from her home, and she grew to adulthood living a fairly marginalised life in the apocalypses of the universe. Loki was lonely? Well, Sylvie was lonely and also in constant danger. From the TVA, from whatever threats exist in her apocalypse refuges.
The thing is, it's not actually a competition. Loki enjoying a childhood of comfort doesn't negate the emotional abuse which underpinned it. Sylvie struggling to survive from a young age doesn't change the fact that she has also made some very, very bad choices and killed a lot of innocent people along the way. She needs a redemption arc as much as him! Every Loki has had a rough life, and every Loki has made bad choices -- the only difference between Sylvie and Loki and the rest* is that they are a tiny bit self-aware, and also very tired of their own shenanigans and failings. And that's where real growth begins.
* I'd put Classic Loki in the self-aware pile, too. And maybe also Lokigator, he seems pretty self-actualised.
no subject
Date: 2021-07-10 11:51 pm (UTC)I DO remember when Thor was the only MCU movie, by a mile, to pass bechdel. I don't think it lost that until Iron Man 3. It had FOUR women! With lines! Revolutionary! Of course the big ship that came out of it other than Thorki was Clint/Coulson.
no subject
Date: 2021-07-11 12:06 am (UTC)HOW HAVE WE NOT MOVED ON???
I'm not arguing that Odin wasn't terrible, and that Frigga didn't absolutely enable him, and really I should amend my subject line to specify that I'm not saying Loki wasn't abused, just that he was abused but knew where his next meal was coming from. BUT THE GENOCIDE WAS ALL LOKI. SO WAS THE FRATRICIDE!
(It makes sense to me, psychologically, that Loki would go after Thor instead of Odin, whose approval he still wants! That is totally fucked up AND YET! But it doesn't excuse ... you know.)
Oh, is this where that came from? But they weren't even ... no, never mind. I get it.
no subject
Date: 2021-07-11 12:13 am (UTC)On some level, I miss post-Ragnarok Loki, and I think the show is partly trying to get him back by other means. So it's not like a Loki has never been here before. I just hope they can all make it stick.
P.S. It's kind of funny that the target of the misogyny is also a Loki. Way to show that it really is just about women in general, not any specific female character in particular.
no subject
Date: 2021-07-11 12:17 am (UTC)I didn't think you were defending Odin et al, I'm just immensely amused that my dash is AGAIN all about whether or not Loki ever did anything wrong IN HIS LIFE, when I didn't give a shit the first time.
It's like whenever a show that I was trying to ignore when it aired shows up on Netflix and everyone reinvents discourse.
On the other hand, lots of people seem to be digging the show, and I'm happy women with speaking roles are no longer an oddity in the MCU. (Though hating on them appears not to have changed. Christ.)
no subject
Date: 2021-07-11 12:45 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2021-07-11 01:26 am (UTC)And I'm really interested in the idea of getting him through this character development from a different angle. It's very cool!
See also: people screaming about Sylvie/Loki being incest suddenly shipping Loki/President Loki...
no subject
Date: 2021-07-11 01:27 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2021-07-11 01:46 am (UTC)//FACEDESK
This is why I'm staying out of fandom right now, except some subreddits actually are tolerable. (Not the Black Widow one. sigh)
She got snatched when she was a child! She was ripped away from her home and her world was erased and she went IMMEDIATELY on the run and found out she would be hunted wherever she went unless she hid in apocalypses! (Apocalypsi? Apocalypso....) But GOD forbid the actress say something about her own character.
The thing is, it's not actually a competition. Loki enjoying a childhood of comfort doesn't negate the emotional abuse which underpinned it. Sylvie struggling to survive from a young age doesn't change the fact that she has also made some very, very bad choices and killed a lot of innocent people along the way. She needs a redemption arc as much as him! Every Loki has had a rough life, and every Loki has made bad choices -- the only difference between Sylvie and Loki and the rest* is that they are a tiny bit self-aware, and also very tired of their own shenanigans and failings. And that's where real growth begins.
THANK. YOU. Yeah, the "my fave must be BEST and THEIR viewpoint must be right always and they can NEVER be criticized or lose the spotlight" is just, I cannot deal with it right now. LIGHTEN UP,
FRANCISFANDOM, jeez.Lokigator is a true angel who never did anything wrong in his lifeI love his little murdery eyes. Every time they cut for a reaction shot to the evil croc grin, I just LOST it.no subject
Date: 2021-07-11 01:46 am (UTC)Oh, Tumblr. UGH. Sometimes I tire of digging through the smouldering filthy hay to find the shiny needles.
no subject
Date: 2021-07-11 01:50 am (UTC)I thiiiink Iron Man 2 passes the Bechdel with Pepper and Nat....no, I just checked a transcript. Damn. I love TWS but I don't think it passes the Bechdel either. (Black Widow DID, it was amazing.)
no subject
Date: 2021-07-11 01:56 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2021-07-11 01:57 am (UTC)I've also noticed that some segments of Loki fandom are weirdly invested in hating Taika Waititi. Is that still the case? After Ragnarok came out it was a lot of people hating that a Jewish, indigenous MOC didn't give enough 'respect' to their white fave, to the point of calling him antisemitic because apparently Loki is 'Jewish-coded.'* It was a Time.
*if you're going by the way stereotypes have influenced Hollywood villainy then I guess you can make that argument, but that doesn't change the fact that Tom Hiddleston is the whitest dude to ever white dude and, as I saw one person brilliantly describe it, "looks like he did hazing rituals at Eton next to Prince Charles and David Cameron."
no subject
Date: 2021-07-11 01:59 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2021-07-11 02:03 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2021-07-11 02:05 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2021-07-11 02:07 am (UTC)(dash in this case being shorthand for my generalise awareness of fandom on social media)
no subject
Date: 2021-07-11 02:17 am (UTC)reddit is not a good place for BW right now because a lot of people are screaming about Taskmaster, but I don't want to brave Tumblr. I went looking for Loki pix on Tumblr because the show is just so gorgeous, and ran smack into a nasty wall of misogyny. Some fans got REALLY ugly about Sylvie supposedly getting in between their Mobius/Loki shipping.
no subject
Date: 2021-07-11 02:20 am (UTC)IT'S JUST LIKE THAT, only this time I didn't have the sense to stay out of it and blacklist everything.
Yeah, I've seen people talking about how Ragnarok "destroyed" Loki, and instead of fixing Taika's work, the series is making it "even worse". And I'm like, if by "destroy" and "make it even worse", you mean "make Loki a little bit interesting", sure!
IT'S FUNNY BECAUSE IT'S TRUE. And I suspect there's a dash of classism as well as misogyny in fandom's treatment of Sylvie, because Sophia Di Martino has a middle class regional accent, and because Sylvie hangs shit on Loki for being raised a prince. WHAT GAVE HER THE RIGHT, ETC.
no subject
Date: 2021-07-11 02:22 am (UTC)(And I kind of skirt that line, because one of my bulletproof kinks is "I am massively traumatised but I can compartmentalise just long enough to be intensely competent, but afterwards I'm gonna need support". And that's hard to pull off.)
no subject
Date: 2021-07-11 02:23 am (UTC)Screaming ... how? Because I feel like Taskmaster's story is an interesting construction of disability, and I'm not sure if I like it yet, but I'm curious to know if anyone has written about that.
no subject
Date: 2021-07-11 02:25 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2021-07-11 02:42 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2021-07-11 02:58 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2021-07-11 03:03 am (UTC)On the other hand, I can think of a lot of ways you could mitigate the gender/sexuality issues without changing Silvie's arc or character in any significant way(*) and suspect these would not make her notably less hated.
(*)having more female Lokis played by Sophie Di Martino, who are all terrible in the usual unredeemed Loki way; Having a secret (past?) office romance between Mobius and Casey; Loki and Silvie have fun switching between each other's genders/appearances while remaining entirely themselves; etc. Oh no I made myself sad these aren't going to be canon. YET DO NOT BLAME SYLVIE.
no subject
Date: 2021-07-11 03:03 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2021-07-11 03:08 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2021-07-11 03:22 am (UTC)SPOILERS FOR BLACK WIDOW MOVIE, BIG ONES, NO I AM NOT KIDDING, BIG HAIRY ONES WITH EIGHT LEGS AND A CROWN OF EYES
Apparently the fan boys are FREAKED OUT that it isn't Tony Masters (everyone thought this was going to be the actor who is sorta Nat's love interest? but that seemed to have gotten cut) who is this guy who originally Just Somehow has extraordinary powers to mimic anyone in a fight and THEREFORE overpower them (which makes no sense, you don't need to thoughtlessly replicate someone's style, you need to ANALYZE it. But anyway). I have always found this character a giant overpowered pain in the ass but there are some people going beyond disappointed "I like this character and wanted to see him" reasonableness to "it is SO HORRIBLE that they replaced him with a GIRL and she made NO SENSE and it SUCKED and now we will NEVER get another chance to have him in the MCU again!!!" When in fact they wove it pretty well into the movie's themes of mirroring and puppetry and free will, and since my impression was the mimicry was due to a metal suit, there can still be some version of OG Taskmaster. Same thing happened with Ghost in Ant-Man -- genderswapped and a backstory change to tie the character to the plot and background in the movie.
Same fan boy types freaked out about how RUINED Crossbones was in the MCU and how totally wasted he was and they sure hoped that didn't happen to Taskmaster, &c &c. From what I can see it's fuelling a lot of really nasty vitriol online, mostly reddit and Twitter. And Crossbones and Taskmaster both appear in a lot of comics storylines and have a sizable fanbase, so I understand people feeling frustrated that their fave has been so changed up for the movie! But it's like they're going on a crusade to torpedo the movie or something.
no subject
Date: 2021-07-11 03:26 am (UTC)I'm a filthy casual, so I had no idea of the Taskmaster background and assumed it was Rachel Weisz in the suit -- but the actual reveal makes so much sense for the story, and is what the emotional narrative needed. And I feel like there's an interesting metaphor for how disabled people are used as props when it's convenient but are otherwise ignored. So I can see how you'd be disappointed if you were a big fan of the comics character, but I do not remotely understand how you could argue that this "makes no sense".
no subject
Date: 2021-07-11 03:31 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2021-07-11 03:34 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2021-07-11 04:23 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2021-07-11 04:34 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2021-07-11 04:43 am (UTC)"And I suspect there's a dash of classism as well as misogyny in fandom's treatment of Sylvie"
Tbh, I've never understood the attraction to Loki, except that it falls right in line with the internet's fascination with upper class British white men. Though why anyone would prefer raw English chicken breast when you have prime Aussie beef available, I will never know...
no subject
Date: 2021-07-11 05:21 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2021-07-11 05:23 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2021-07-11 05:30 am (UTC)Some of it? But the good faith criticisms of the (extremely problematic) cissexism and heteronormativity are far outnumbered by the thinly-veiled misogyny.
You have officially put more thought into this than Disney, and shown more imagination than Disney and the majority of fandom combined.
no subject
Date: 2021-07-11 06:27 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2021-07-11 08:32 am (UTC)I am shocked, shocked! that people think that the introduction of a major female character has ruined the show. This is something I have never encountered in my -- what, 20? 30? -- years of fandom. Meanwhile I will sit in my corner and rejoice in the fact that the show is confirming more or less everything I've ever thought about Loki. I love the conflict between what he wants and what he thinks he should want. I am 100% there for Loki/Syvie, especially if they destroy the sacred timeline while they're at it.
no subject
Date: 2021-07-11 02:21 pm (UTC)I think the only fandom I've been in where this really wasn't a thing was BtVS.
no subject
Date: 2021-07-11 08:55 pm (UTC)ETA can’t get it to work… I don’t know what I was expecting, basically fandom is a garbage heap most of the time anyway
no subject
Date: 2021-07-12 10:53 am (UTC)There's still time! Maybe the final episode won't be entirely CGI explosions...
no subject
Date: 2021-07-12 10:56 am (UTC)Yeah. And misogyny inspired by legitimate issues is still misogyny.
And yeah, I tried very hard to lower my expectations for how interesting this show would be about gender, and they were almost low enough, but not quite :/
no subject
Date: 2021-07-12 06:18 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2021-07-12 06:39 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2021-07-13 10:56 am (UTC)Like Wendy Lawson in Captain Marvel too. I get missing one's OG fave, but dude buddy pal... 😬
(Wendy Lawson was smoking hot.)
no subject
Date: 2021-07-13 09:58 pm (UTC)