lizbee | Feminism: Doing it wrong

With Amy gone, we can no longer argue whether or not wearing mini-skirts makes her a brazen hussy ... but don't worry, here's the argument about whether Clara's second job makes her a whore, or merely easy. Also, characterisation: what business does it have appearing in television?

Fandom: actually in fact the worst!

On an unrelated note: denizens of Tumblr! If you're about to claim that rape was unknown outside of Europe until it was introduced by colonisers, I strongly recommend first googling "noble savage stereotype", and then sitting very quietly and thinking about what you've done.

Current Mood: annoyed
Current Location: Now I have a Clara icon!
Crossposts: http://lizbee.livejournal.com/1268897.html

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

From:

sqbr

Ug. Clara was not a governess getting her kicks pretending to be a barmaid! She was a barmaid trying to get a better life by becoming a governess and pretending to be upper class! I thought that was made pretty clear, eg the way she reverts to her lower class accent under stress.

I do tend to agree with the person expressing frustration with the way that Amy, River and Oswin are ALL sexy women who flirt with the Doctor: each character makes sense individually but it would be nice to have some variety. Still, she does make sense as an individual character. *has a forboding feeling that there will be just as much Oswin hate as Amy hate, yay*

From:

lizbee

I thought that was made pretty clear, eg the way she reverts to her lower class accent under stress.

I'm consistently impressed by fandom's inability to comprehend writing aimed at children.

I do tend to agree with the person expressing frustration with the way that Amy, River and Oswin are ALL sexy women who flirt with the Doctor: each character makes sense individually but it would be nice to have some variety.

Yeah, I prefer Moffat's trope of Curious, Clever, Mouthy and Flirtatious Women to RTD's Aimless Without The Doctor type (the exception being Martha, who has more in common with Moffat's type), but I wouldn't say no to a bit more variety.

*has a forboding feeling that there will be just as much Oswin hate as Amy hate, yay*

I've already seen posts on Tumblr calling her a slut for kissing the Doctor.

From:

sqbr

I've already seen posts on Tumblr calling her a slut for kissing the Doctor.

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaah >:( >:( >:(

(I'd say you need to follow better people if I hadn't made my own "ARGH TUMBLR" post recently)

From:

jesuswasbatman

It's a bit more than "slut", there's also been a resurgence of people claiming that the scenes of women kissing the Doctor without permission in Moffat-era stories are tantamount to rape and proof that he has no conception of consent.

From:

lizbee

Well, yeah, the power dynamic and context is exactly like in a sexual assault OH WAIT.

From:

aella_irene

Especially since there was a dodgy power dynamic in that episode, and it was between Clara and her employer.

(I love Clara. I ship Clara/Doctor, and when someone pointed out that she is very very Mary Poppins, I squeeed.)

From:

sqbr

I do think the "woman kissing a surprised Doctor" thing has Issues and has regardless gotten a bit old at this point, but it's not sexual assault, ack.

From:

kerravonsen

Agreed on both points.

From:

sohotrightnow

I don't know why I'm surprised at this point, and yet I am. Bravo, fandom, bravo.

From:

sabotabby

I'm consistently impressed by fandom's inability to comprehend writing aimed at children.

In fairness (why am I being fair to fandom?) I am not sure how readily apparent the accent thing would be to North Americans who didn't grow up with British TV.

I think Moffat has issues with writing female characters; I am failing to see Oswin's character, from what we've seen of her, as problematic in that regard.

From:

trouble

Yeah, Moffatt has a type, bless his wee cotton socks, and since I have the same type I really enjoy it. But more variety would be a delight, too.

From:

nostalgia

TUMBLR SAYS WHAT

From:

lizbee

Regarding the horrifying statistics of black men versus white men being jailed for rape, one note said:

Not shocking being white men brought rape to the new world and still do it worldwide.

And there were a bunch more besides. I WAS MOST INTRIGUED.

From:

nostalgia

Well EVERYONE KNOWS that all evils arrived with colonisation and before that people lived in hippy communes and loved nature and wouldn't hurt a blade of grass let alone another person. As I'm sure you know, being an Australian and all.

From:

lizbee

Exactly!

From:

nostalgia

I can't think of anything racist at all in a formula that makes white people incarnate evil and everyone else innocent puppies waiting to pick up bad habits.

From:

lizbee

It's certainly never been used to justify the genocide of an indigenous culture on the grounds that they would never have coped with "civilisation" anyway OH WAIT YES IT HAS.

Also, as statements go, it's just offensive in its ignorance. Go read some folklore and literature and history from other civilisations and cultures, then come back.

From:

nostalgia

Pshaw, like other people have literature and history! I don't need to know that stuff to know that they were lovely!

From:

jesuswasbatman

"Hate was just a legend, war was never known"

From:

sabra_n

I can almost see the argument that Amy being a kiss-o-gram was a euphemism for something, if I squint really hard and maybe give myself some head trauma, but Clara the barmaid? Really, guys? Projecting much?

From:

lizbee

Yeah, I wouldn't want to be working in any bar these guys go to.

From:

sabra_n

Okay, I went to the OP, and at least the responses I skimmed through seemed reasonable, but seriously, it's "Madonna/whore," not "saint/whore." People should at least get their stereotypes straight. :P

From:

tree_and_leaf

Especially as there's a definite sub-genre of hagiography where the saints are (or, to be fair, were) whores...

From:

lyricwrites.livejournal.com

For every person making the argument that barmaid = prostitute, there is a cocktail waitress somewhere who has fantasized about murdering them horribly with a paper umbrella and an olive. I would bet money on it.

From:

kouredios

I knew there was a reason I had stopped watching that comm...

From:

drakyndra

It's been at the circular logic point for a while now: "Since Moffat is clearly sexist, how does this particular character demonstrate Moffat's sexism." The fact the person making that comment clearly doesn't know what the Madonna/whore dichotomy actually means didn't help the case.

Then again, I also think that not explaining something =/= a plot-hole and a big chunk of people seem to disagree with that, so...

Though I'm still wondering if people have forgotten all the hate Martha got for being too similar to Rose.

From:

wolfy_writing

White people invented rape? Do they not know the history of anything ever?

From:

jesuswasbatman

I'm glad

miss_s_b didn't see that one.

From:

lizbee

Yeah, I had the same thought!

From:

marymac

Yep, coming to help out in an emergency as a barmaid in your family's pub* makes you a whore. Totally.

*Possibly not her dad, but definite family business/doting relation vibe coming off that last exchange there

From:

kerravonsen

Possibly not her dad, but definite family business/doting relation vibe coming off that last exchange there

I think Miss Montague also made reference to a "family emergency" when she returned to her governess position, didn't she?

From:

marymac

She did, and had clearly given her employer notice that she had an invalid relative who might need attending to at intervals upon her employment, since he seemed perfectly unsurprised by the whole thing. I have begun working from an assumption that these people are a) not paying any attention to what they're watching and b) that specific kind of fundamentalist that makes my Brethren great-great-aunt's opinions about necklines and hems look positively Mary Quant.

Makes me much happier.

From:

nonelvis

You already know what I think of the

doctorwho post, so all I have to say is this: Tumblr. Tumblr. Pick up a history book every now and then. Or go to Wikipedia. Or maybe pay attention in your history class for five minutes without doodling LARRY STYLINSON 4EVA on your notebook, okay?

From:

phosfate

Last night on Tumblr I told a grown woman that David Bowie was once targeted by Soviet assassins because of his cameo in the adopted-by-dissidents film Into the Night, and that the reason for his drapey linen suit at the was to conceal the body armor. She accepted all of this completely and utterly without question.

An entire future of straight-faced lying has opened before me, a rainbow path of bullshit that I must now follow.

From:

nonelvis

This seems like a perfectly valid -- nay, required -- life choice.

From:

attackfish

Wait, David Bowie wasn't targeted by Soviet assassins and forced to wear body armor? My life no longer has any meaning!!!!1

From:

wolfy_writing

Ooh, can you convince them that it's somehow culturally imperialist to not believe the North Korean government has discovered actual unicorns?

From:

skipthedemon

I especially liked the comment that there was simply no way someone lower class could have educated herself enough to bluff her way into a position as governess. They had to have middle or upper class origins. It's not like there were hundreds of public libraries in England by 1900 or the Education Act of 1870 instituted mandatory schooling or anything! *eyeroll*

From:

lizbee

Frankly, I think it would be easier than going the other way -- at least the rules of middle class society were written down!

From:

skipthedemon

Oh, oh! I stumbled across this about why Jenny and Vastra are problematic and thought of you: http://peoplecallmepsycho.tumblr.com/post/38841801752/theangelstakemysanity-i-want-to-see-these-guys

From:

lizbee

Oh, that's adorable!

From:

lyricwrites.livejournal.com

Well, the amount of code-switching she was doing was impressive as all hell. Not everyone can learn to switch their accent and their body language, and she had both absolutely pitch-perfect. I actually think that bit is more impressive than learning (or faking) a proper governess's knowledge base. But in the real world, people have managed that sort of social leap.

Also—speaking for myself personally—I don't mind if Doctor Who errs a bit on the side of hope, rather than historical accuracy. In the real Victorian world, Madame Vastra might have ended up in a cage long before she became indispensable to Scotland Yard, but I don't want to see that story. I like the one where she and Jenny have a good life and a solid relationship even if that relationship utterly fails to compute for ninety percent of the people they run across. Likewise, it might be more probable for a barmaid-becoming-governess to make some tiny error and get hauled away in disgrace, but I like the version where cleverness and nerve prevail. I mean, there's a believability limit, obviously, but I didn't feel like the episode was ignoring historical realities so much as suggesting that it is possible to break free of your "station," and always has been—even when society is built specifically to prevent that sort of thing.

From:

sohotrightnow

I really shouldn't comment at all because when it comes to stuff like this it's impossible for me to not be a total snot about fandom, but I had to high-five you. _o/\o_