Worldcon panels part 2

[lizbee]

I left off at the conclusion of the Case for a Female Doctor panel, which ended with me having an aneurysm. In the hours that followed, I located mondyboy and calapine, and we slipped into the final half hour of a panel on fantasy elements in Shakespeare, in which robshearman and another gentleman said many intelligent things, and Allison Croggon said equally intelligent things, but more rarely, as she was losing her voice.

What happened next was my fault. The panel was called "We Are All Fairy Tales: Doctor Who's Fifth Season". I wanted to go. calapine was hesitant, fearing that it would be full of people being wrong. But I argued, with such a good name, how could it be anything other than a really interesting and clever panel about the themes and fairy tale elements of season 5?

Yyyyyyyyyyyyeah.





The panellists were Kathryn Sullivan, Narrelle M. Harris, George Ivanoff, Rani Graff, but I can't remember a single thing any individual person said, except that George Ivanoff (again, the only man on the panel) had an Anti-Sonic Screwdriver Agenda.

Going through my notes, same as before:

Actual Australians on this panel! Although I can't remember who was who, except that Narelle M. Harris is the author of the worst novel I have ever read. (It's a Melbourne-based urban supernatural romance about a librarian who becomes involved with vampires. I lend it to people who think I'm joking about how awful it is, and they give it back to me with wide, haunted eyes.)

"I love Torchwood." - bad sign. Introductory statement from a panellist. A sure sign that they're tastes are bad radically different from mine.

"I criticise Doctor Who." - "I am not like other fans." Another introductory statement, actual words and the implicit subtext.

"Season 5 was inferior to the rest of New Who." It was at this point that I realised this was not the panel of my dreams.

"I got through season 5 without being angry." I think this was Kathryn Sullivan; she talked about how, even in really good episodes, RTD-era who nearly always contained some sting in the subtext (or text) that left her feeling angry and hurt. She found that season 5 was much better in that respect.

Season 4: Donna's end was evil. As an example of the above.

I've written, "The Doctor was made to look stupider than the Doctor." What was actually said, and I think this was by George Ivanoff, as I associate it with a male voice, is that the Doctor was made to look stupider than Amy. (No examples were given; I presume he was referring to "The Beast Below", where the Doctor is too paralysed by rage and grief to perceive what Amy does.)

This led to the following:

What's with all the Amy hate? This panel is full of Tennant fans. Why is this panel dominated by season 5 haters? Questions that will echo through to the end of time.

Reaction to Matt Smith = reaction to Sylvester McCoy. As in the fandom's response to the casting. "Oh noes, a funny-looking young white guy with stupid hair!" "Oh noes, a Scottish man who put ferrets down his pants!" I'm not sure I wholly agree, but it was an interesting remark.

Since when is Moffat incapable of showrunning? Written in response to a remark about how Moffat lacks experience as a showrunner and shouldn't have been given the job. Sorry, Press Gang, Coupling, Jekyll and the series that I can't remember on account of how they weren't as good successful iconic, you don't count anymore.

Am I in a universe where RTD didn't stuff up until season 4? Responding to the comment, "Russell T Davies didn't oversee a dud episode until three and a half years into his run. With Moffat, it was three episodes." I wish I lived in a universe where "The Long Game" hadn't happened.

Season 5 is not TNG season 1! No, really, anyone who makes a comparison that stupid has unexpectedly rosy memories of Star Trek: The Next Generation's first season. And I say that as someone who thinks "The Naked Now" is very underrated.

"I am not a Rusty-basher." - followed by a long list of failings. Tired of messiah complex. I believe this was Kathryn Sullivan again, presenting a very reasonable critique of RTD's Who.

How the fuck was the Doctor dumbed down? Look, was he over-powered or dumbed down? PS. Watch the damn episode again. In the same breath, Ivanoff (I think) complained again that the Doctor was dumbed down and powerless, and then that he was over-powered and omniscient. As an example, he used the "HELLOOOOO, STONEHENGE!" bit in "The Pandorica Opens", only he totally missed the bit where even the Doctor thought that was a stupid plan, and estimated it would only hold people off for about half an hour.

"Vincent and the Doctor" = popular. In fact, it was held up as the only good episode of the season. Certainly I think it was the best, but the only good one? Once again, I am glad the version of the series I watched was better than everyone else's. It was generally agreed that everything needs moar Bill Nighy.

The theme was memory. Every episode had a callback to Classic Who. I'm not sure about every episode, but I'll be more than happy to double check and be sure!

Should have put Pertwee's tattoo on Smiff. In the shower scene in "The Lodger". This is such a brilliant idea, I feel the BBC needs to go and CGI said tattoo in for the box set.

Yes, let's have a really low-key finale. That's good television! The same people who were complaining about Moff not knowing how to run a series now turned their attention to his invention of the Giant Epic Finale. I know, right? What we really need is more season enders like "The Armageddon Factor". Teach the kids what real television looks like.

"Father's Day" is a great episode - great Whovian fallacy. My thought in response to someone trotting that old myth out.

Immense attention to detail etc, eg the museum scenes. How much of the universe has changed post-Pandorica? Thoughts worth recording.

The fans have taken over! The show, they meant.

Angela Lansbury as the Doctor? Really? Yeah, I don't know either.

Yes, we're moving to a younger demographic. AND WOMEN! Women, let alone young women, have never watched DW before. They'll just mess it up and make it like Twilight or something.

Why so ageist? Hasn't DW always been a kids' show? JUST BECAUSE IT'S AIMED AT CHILDREN DOESN'T MAKE IT BAD! We went from "Oh noes, young womens!" to "Oh noes, now it's suddenly for children!"

A woman a few years younger than me put her hand up, and said that when she watched DW as a child in the '80s, she never had any doubt that it was aimed at a family audience. Here is where my blood really started to boil, because one of the (older, female) panellists interrupted her to say, "Yes, but it was censored in Australia, so you got the kiddy version."

And she tried to say, without success, that no, the McCoy era went uncensored, but she was basically talked over and dismissed. And this silencing of a young woman's opinions and experience sort of tied into the Amy stuff that followed.

Allegedly, Rory's death had no emotional impact. This was stated as fact. calapine was like, "Speak for yourself, mate," and I started sketching her little enraged face.

Amy needs a man to make her likable. Seriously, I love Rory, but some of his fans make me want to punch things.

But Amelia gets applause. Children are asexual and non-threatening! Amy is too bossy, but Amelia being bossy would have been awesome. And the moral is that young women, especially attractive young women, should never have or express opinions.

Splitting season means 2 giant finales? Which would, remember, be bad.

ONLY "VINCENT AND THE DOCTOR" DESERVES A HUGO! Not that it doesn't, I was just growing tired of the whole "'Vincent' was the only good episode" schtick.

The "Bad Wolf" and "Torchwood" memes were subtle and carefully planned and executed. In other news, there is no war in Ba Sing Se.

Long convo about the sonic screwdriver. No, really. Most people think it's overused and should be destroyed. There was a lot of talk about how it was destroyed in the Great Fire of London. calapine kept muttering, "No! It was shot by a Terileptil!" but by now we knew better than to interrupt our elders and betters with our silly girl ideas.

"I love River." FINALLY SOMEONE SAYS SOMETHING REASONABLE! However, this was followed by an explanation that River is only likable if she's not actually the Doctor's wife, because obviously Eleven is asexual (NO, REALLY) and female persons are only any good when they have no real sexuality (like Donna! Why can't River have a hilarious old lady sexuality like Donna?) and so on.

Then, I kid you not, someone said, "Anyway, the Doctor having any kind of emotional involvement with another character would cheapen his love for Rose."

CHEAPEN HIS LOVE FOR ROSE. REALLY! Trust me, girls, when a man dumps you in another universe, not one but three times, that's a benchmark against which all other great loves must be measured.

Anyway, I snorted rather loudly (for which I apologise to anyone sitting around us), and calapine said, "Okay, we're leaving," and we escaped and went in search of restorative cocktails.



The only other panel I went to was about history in YA speculative fiction. It was an interesting panel by authors whose work I'm going to check out, but I felt it suffered from a lack of familiarity with current YA. I mean, I can talk about Joan Aiken until the cows come home, but the argument about historical accuracy, necessity thereof, would have been interesting if someone had raised the Great And Terrible Beauty series or others.

Comments

[lyssie.livejournal.com]

"I criticise Doctor Who."
I guess that just makes them a special snowflake. We should give them a badge, it could say something like "I'm too cool for school" or something.

"Season 5 was inferior to the rest of New Who."

And that would have been where I laughed loudly and then walked out. I have better things to do with my time. (then again, I sat in a BSG panel and endured an hour of EJO talking about how it was the most ground-breaking show ever and nothing would ever surpass it. ever. so perhaps I have no leg to stand on.)

The "Bad Wolf" and "Torchwood" memes were subtle and carefully planned and executed

...there are people who actually think that? No, really?

I wish I lived in a universe where "The Long Game" hadn't happened.

I live in such a universe. I've never been interested enough to watch it (or "Father's Day", come to that). Of course, my universe takes a sharp turn after "Unquiet Dead" and doesn't resurface into reality until "The Empty Child".

[lizbee]

"I guess that just makes them a special snowflake. We should give them a badge, it could say something like "I'm too cool for school" or something."

Well, they are the only person in fandom who criticises the show. That's pretty amazing in and of itself.

"(then again, I sat in a BSG panel and endured an hour of EJO talking about how it was the most ground-breaking show ever and nothing would ever surpass it. ever. so perhaps I have no leg to stand on.)"

If I ever walked into a panel and saw EJO sitting there, I'd scream and run away.

[sqbr]

I saw that panel description and went "Lol no".

cameronm on the other hand thought "Yay! I can squee about Dr Who and the awesomeness of Stephen Moffat with other fans!"

Afterwards he asked me with a haunted expression "But...how? How can they think all of RTD's episodes were good and all of Moffat's bad? HOW CAN THEY HATE AMY? IT MAKES NO SENSE" and I told him that this is why I am not in Dr Who fandom, apart from reading the journals of people like you and talking to the commenters on my Amy/River fic (who are by their nature less prone to Amy/River/etc hate)

EDIT: Also the Doctor having any kind of emotional involvement with another character would cheapen his love for Rose ahahaha.

[lizbee]

WHY PEOPLE GOTTA BE HATERS? WHY?

[sqbr]

I don't know but it makes me sad :(

[myniamh]

I'm not surprised at all by the reaction Amy gets. She's a bit mad. She's the Weird Girl. She's the girl who WONT SHUT UP about some fictional thing no one else likes and doesn't actually care what anyone thinks about her. She's been told she is damaged for most of her life. She bites those who tell her that she's wrong. I love her.

That said, identifying with her could stem from me being banned from mentioning Doctor Who at all to people who a few months later discovered Torchwood was THE BEST THING EVER. ¬¬

cheapen his love for Rose

I think most of my feelings toward Rose come from some fans opinion that ROSE AND TEN ARE SOULBONDED TOGETHER FOREVER OMG. It's very difficult for me to like her if I can't buy the wailing and grief at the end. I liked her at the beginning, I remember telling people that.

Thinking about why I like some companions and not others is just making me want episodes where Charlie (India Fisher) and Amy meet and the utter destruction that would come from that. >:D

[sqbr]

Oh, I'm not surprised either, but it makes me sad.

I'm in this weird position where I like Rose, and enjoyed the Ten/Rose love story a moderate amount (it was the pining and mistreating Martha etc that bugged me, and I blamed Ten for that not her) AND really like Amy and River and can enjoy Eleventy shippiness(*). I sometimes feel like I'm the only person who likes ALL the New Who companions (and what I've seen of the Old Who ones too).

(*)Lizbee's previous Worldcon post has me pondering a female!Doctor/River/Amy fic :)

[myniamh]

I'm confused by the idea of having to choose between the companions, that if you like one you must hate the next. I'm not fond of a few from over the years but their existence doesn't devalue anything from New or Old Who.

:D

[sqbr]

It confuses me too and yet I see it a lot!

[pandarus]

...OMG.

Okay, NOW I want like burning for River's first encounter with The Doctor to be when she's female. And their relationship to have begun and flourished thus.

...oh, God. WANT WANT WANT.

[sqbr]

Yes, exactly!

[rhivolution]

Sorta OT, but I'm in the exact same place, personally, and I'm really glad to see someone else who concurs!

[sqbr]

I'm glad it's not just me too ^_^

[violetisblue]

"I mean, I can talk about Joan Aiken until the cows come home, but the argument about historical accuracy, necessity thereof..."

"Necessity" thereof in Joan Aiken? Who wrote the series of books (which I love) where Britain ultimately splits into four separate provinces because of furious in-fighting over football teams?

[lizbee]

They were speaking more generally; there was naught but praise for Aiken's genius.

[violetisblue]

Ah, my mistake. Though as I know very little about that era of British history she could've been very accurate in smaller details and I wouldn't have caught it.

As for that prior panel--pfftt. Whatever, fandom. Though I must join them in the Vincent-love.

[lizbee]

I pictured your little ears pricking up at the "needs moar Nighy" remark, before you went back to destroying zombie culture as we know it.

[violetisblue]

All this time I thought I was being subtle and restrained in my Nighy fixation. No such luck, huh. :-D

"...before you went back to destroying zombie culture as we know it."

I'm picturing Hate Mail Guy working out that his target was also a big lesbo and jumping up and down going "SEE, SEE?! I KNEW IT!"

[lizbee]

[violetisblue]

.............shit, I'm busted. *packs a bag while on phone buying one-way plane ticket to Rio*

[copracat]

Dear God, you poor thing. No wonder it's taken nearly a week to write up. That would be like buying chocolate ice cream and discovering that it was worm flavour but only after you'd licked it. Peh! Ptheh! Urk!

[holyschist]

God, I love your panel recaps.

Also, WHAT on Donna? :-( :-( Although I guess Donna gets laid more in my head than on the show, but whatevs. >:-(

[kerravonsen]

I love your little sketches.

Having been at this panel also, I am able to make informed comments this time.

But I argued, with such a good name, how could it be anything other than a really interesting and clever panel about the themes and fairy tale elements of season 5?

Yes, I also was disappointed that they completely ignored the putative topic of the panel and turned it into a "what I hated and liked about Season 5", especially since the "what I liked" parts were full of damning with faint praise.

I wish I lived in a universe where "The Long Game" hadn't happened.
True, but I have to say that the Dalek episode in Season 5 was worse. Mind you, it was the ONLY dud episode in Season 5.

now turned their attention to his invention of the Giant Epic Finale.
To be fair, they were criticising Rusty for that too. If I recall correctly, George Ivanoff opened that phase with "both Rusty and The Smoff were following the George Lucas school of writing", and he then proceeded to summarize every single Epic Finale in New Who. So I would take that as more of a criticism of Rusty than of Moffat.

I did think that Narelle Harris's comment about having a finale which consisted of "someone's Mum being cross at the Doctor" was amusing. I mean, of course that would never happen, but the remark was really a response to how over the top the finales had been getting.

Oh noes, now it's suddenly for children!
I think the complaint was that it had gone from a "family" show to a "children's" show... which, really, I don't get at all. <Professor Kirke>What do they teach them at these schools?</Professor Kirke>
1) It has always been a "family" show, and still is.
2) Of course the show-runners think it is for kids - haven't you noticed the thing on the BBC website where they get "scare" ratings from kids?
3) If you think the show has been "dumbed down" to be kids-only, you haven't seen The Sarah-Jane Adventures.
4) I don't care a fig if it is a "kids" show or a "family" show, because "kids" shows are nothing to be ashamed of watching, you silly ageists.

There was a lot of talk about how it was destroyed in the Great Fire of London.
I didn't feel it was worth being pedantic about that particular point. And there wasn't a lot of talk about it, it was simply mentioned to point out that the show-runners themselves at the time felt that the Sonic Screwdriver was getting too overpowered and making things too easy.

However, this was followed by an explanation that River is only likable if she's not actually the Doctor's wife, because obviously Eleven is asexual (NO, REALLY) and female persons are only any good when they have no real sexuality (like Donna! Why can't River have a hilarious old lady sexuality like Donna?) and so on.

Er, well, I don't want River to be the Doctor's wife, sorry. I am really annoyed by that meme.
And, mind you, they didn't say "female persons are only any good when they have no real sexuality" outright, just implied it.

And, whether or not Eleven is asexual, he's certainly more "asexual" than Ten, and I find it a great relief, because I was sick of all the Wromance in the TARDIS, because it harks back to the "the only point of a woman is to be a love-interest" sexism. Which I don't like.

"Anyway, the Doctor having any kind of emotional involvement with another character would cheapen his love for Rose."
That was Narelle Harris.

The only other panel I went to was about history in YA speculative fiction.

No, you were at the "Boxcutters Presents: Writing Doctor Who" one, because that's where I bumped into you. Unless you had somehow sneaked into the back and hadn't actually gone to the panel? Or does that one not count because it wasn't, strictly speaking, a "panel"?

[lizbee]

"True, but I have to say that the Dalek episode in Season 5 was worse. Mind you, it was the ONLY dud episode in Season 5."

I don't know, "Victory of the Daleks" was exceptionally silly, but it didn't have the Doctor and companion being hateful to someone for failing to meet the rules he hadn't even specifically set.

"To be fair, they were criticising Rusty for that too. If I recall correctly, George Ivanoff opened that phase with "both Rusty and The Smoff were following the George Lucas school of writing", and he then proceeded to summarize every single Epic Finale in New Who."

Oh yeah, I'd totally forgotten about that!

"No, you were at the "Boxcutters Presents: Writing Doctor Who" one, because that's where I bumped into you. Unless you had somehow sneaked into the back and hadn't actually gone to the panel? Or does that one not count because it wasn't, strictly speaking, a "panel"?"

I wasn't really thinking of it as a panel. Not least because I was standing at the very back, and couldn't take notes, and obviously without notes, it never happened. Even though I enjoyed it more than the actual panels themselves.

[kerravonsen]

but it didn't have the Doctor and companion being hateful to someone for failing to meet the rules he hadn't even specifically set.
I would have thought "don't try to change history by making your mum a millionaire" would have been so obvious it wouldn't need to be stated.

And I did like the point about destroying the Fourth Great And Bountiful Human Empire by totally controlling its media and slanting the news to make the people react the way the Jagrafess wanted them to react.

And the episode I hated the most in New Who was "Tooth and Claw"; I can't bear re-watching it, because of the way that Rose and the Doctor were behaving. How many episodes can you say that they would have been much better if the Doctor and his companion weren't there? And it would have been, because Queen Victoria was awesome.

and obviously without notes, it never happened
(grin)

Even though I enjoyed it more than the actual panels themselves.
I wish you'd been able to make it to the "Fantasy Fiction and the Bechdel Test" panel. I'm sure you would have been able to contribute much interesting stuff to the discussion.

[lilacsigil]

I'm glad you escaped in time! There could have been exploded bits of lizbee all over the place!

[infiniteviking]

I wish I lived in a universe where "The Long Game" hadn't happened.

Likewise. Can we throw out Aliens of London too. Except for Harriet Jones, she was good. *facedesk*

Women, let alone young women, have never watched DW before. They'll just mess it up and make it like Twilight or something.

Oh gosh. BECAUSE THOSE TIMES TEN LEFT ROSE BEHIND BECAUSE HIS LIFE IS TOO EPIC DANGEROUS AND LONELY TO SHARE WERE NOTHING LIKE FULL MOON AT ALL, AMIRITE.

Amy needs a man to make her likable.

.......................what.

Needs more Bill Nighy

Yes.

Should have put Pertwee's tattoo on Smiff. In the shower scene in "The Lodger". This is such a brilliant idea, I feel the BBC needs to go and CGI said tattoo in for the box set.

YES. ^___________^


In conclusion, YOUR DOODLES ARE THE BEST THING TO COME OUT OF THIS PANEL. *squishes them cos they're adorable~*

[pandarus]

I thought that I had reached the pinnacle of my WTF as I worked my way through, but then I read this:

Why can't River have a hilarious old lady sexuality like Donna

...and now I am blind with rage.

Tate is 3 years older than Tennant. SHE IS NOT AN OLD LADY.

::stabs everyone::

::stabs everyone who thinks River is in any way less than totally fucking awesome, and shaggadelic::

...

...did anyone discuss the way that the season was a metatextual loveletter to the whole idea of bringing the show back in the first place? That Dr Who as a show, as well as a character, fell through a crack in the world and could only be brought back into the universe because of the loyalty and sheer bloody mindedness of the girl who waited Rusty and Moff and you and me and all the rest of the die-hard fans who never forgot about hiding behind the sofa from daleks and sonic screwdrivers and blue boxes that made weird noises? Did they touch on the ways (good and bad) that Amy maps onto fairytale figures, or the Little Red Riding Hood imagery in the Stone Angels episode? Amy as avatar of fandom, with her fanfic and fanart?

[kerravonsen]

Tate is 3 years older than Tennant. SHE IS NOT AN OLD LADY.
Calm down, or get mad at Lizbee, because this was NOT said. This was just Lizbee's way of expressing the implication that some of the panellists made that they liked Donna because she wasn't a love-interest. NOBODY said that Donna was an old lady. Okay?

stabs everyone who thinks River is in any way less than totally fucking awesome, and shaggadelic
Ouch! (dabs at the blood pouring out of my metaphorical chest)

I think she is in some way "less than totally fucking awesome", sorry. She has had her awesome moments, and then she spoils it by being smug. I hate it when she's being smug, especially when the reason is not that she has actually done something awesome at that point, but because, due to an accident of time travel, she knows things that the Doctor doesn't know yet. It feels like un-earned smugness to me, and it is really annoying. Whereas when she does things like threaten a Dalek, or escape from prison, or steal paintings, that's stuff that she's actually done, and she's demonstrating awesomeness at that point.

And I hate the idea that she's the Doctor's wife, because I hate it when a female character is just there to be a love-interest for the male lead. Hisss.

did anyone discuss the way that the season was a metatextual loveletter...
These are awesome points, I wish you'd been there to bring them up, because the panel did not discuss the "Fairytale" aspect of Season 5 in any way whatsoever. (big frown)

[pandarus]

See, I don't think that River IS there just to be the love-interest for the male lead, any more than Captain Jack was. I loved the living hell out of 'Silence in the Library' for taking the central conceit of 'The Time Traveller's Wife' - which isn't so much the romance as it is the complexities and implications of two people who are travelling through time in different ways connecting at wildly different points in their lives, and knowing one another in very different ways as a result - almost more like a mystery story than a romance. Granted, we're stuck with the Doctor's POV, so we don't know all the back-story they have - but I love the idea that there is all this back story. I'm sure that The Doctor came across as unspeakably smug when he encountered River for the first time in her own personal Time Stream - hell, he comes across as tremendously smug an awful lot of the time just on general principles. And it's clear that they've spent much of their relationship with him teaching her things, and having the advantage of knowing all about her personally, on top of the normal I Am A Fucking Time Lord! advantage he has over most people. I think it would take a much more saintly and dull sort of person to NOT have a twinkle in their eye at finally seeing the Doctor lose some of his massive advantage.

The Doctor is pretty much always the smartest, most knowledgable person in the room - and I am very fond of him (with reservations), but it's VERY nice seeing him having to operate in contexts where he isn't being all Omniscient Lonely God figure - whether it's with The Master, or with River Song. River may turn out to be Romana or The Rani or somebody, I suppose, but I find myself hoping that she's actually just a human who happens to be smart and capable and ruthless, and whose only advantage over the Doctor is the simple fact that she's from further ahead in his personal timestream, and knows him very well indeed.

She could be his offspring or one of his descendants, or even his mother or something, but I'm charmed by the idea that she's his wife, and given that the relationship is clearly a nod to 'The Time Traveller's Wife', down to the diary, it seems pretty clear that that's the case. (Whether or not they are lovers is another question entirely - the Doctor does rather seem to have inadvertently proposed, so it's entirely possible that their relationship remains intense but asexual - I could buy them getting married for some plotty reason that has nothing to do with romance.)

Afaic it makes little sense to say that she's there just to be the love interest - because right now she ISN'T a love interest. The Doctor evidently finds her intriguing, but he isn't smitten - he was much more smitten by Reinette, and Rose. She's clearly leading her own very interesting life, which has been interwoven with The Doctor's for quite a while. She may very well end up killing him, or betraying him terribly in some fashion - there were certainly hints that this was the case, and there would be a rather splendid symmetry in her sacrificing her life in the the library to save him, knowing that she has been/will eventually be responsible for killing him.

I think it's one of the most interesting and potent plot threads they've introduced in AGES, and I actively enjoy the fact that we only see the edges of the story.

I'm not saying that this is the case with you (I mean, really not - I'm not being passive aggressive here), but I do think that an awful lot of the criticisms I've seen leveled at River Song would NOT have been leveled at her if she had a penis. And I find that quite galling.

Anyway, notwithstanding the fact that imho River is an awesome BAMF and a splendid recurring character (because, I have to say, I am well and truly over the daleks, and think they need to take a season or two to go chill somewhere - although I'd be happy to see the Master again), it has been pointed out to me that there's a recurring theme in Season 5 - and in much of Moff's work - of women being passive, or of being tidily married off. This, combined with some of the twaddle he's apparently spouted about women being needy, does make me headdesk a bit - and, yes, I can agree that the guy may have some issues. But I think River Song is an awful lot more than that.

I also very much enjoy the fairy tale sensibility that he brings to the show, and I think he's got a terrific knack for dialogue. I'm hoping he'll get a bit more of a clue about not feeling he needs to put women on ice/in cells/in Pandora's box/otherwise have them waiting around for Prince Charming. (This is, after all, the guy who gave us Lynda on Press Gang.)

[bluejeanbaby]

I enjoyed Ten/Reinette but it seemed one episode was not long enough to spend on the pairing. So that kind of makes me like that Eleven/River is not instant love like T/Reinette were. If Eleven/River is to be romantic I'd rather see alot of development to it. Or see it as development for what she may have with a future doctor. But she's got more sides to her than just being one thing, she's many things and we'll find out how many things she is in Season 6. (I don't get the Ten/Rose so I won't say anything, except that.)

[curuchamion]

'the season was a metatextual loveletter to the whole idea of bringing the show back in the first place? That Dr Who as a show, as well as a character, fell through a crack in the world and could only be brought back into the universe because of the loyalty and sheer bloody mindedness of the girl who waited Rusty and Moff and you and me and all the rest of the die-hard fans who never forgot about hiding behind the sofa from daleks and sonic screwdrivers and blue boxes that made weird noises? Did they touch on the ways (good and bad) that Amy maps onto fairytale figures, or the Little Red Riding Hood imagery in the Stone Angels episode? Amy as avatar of fandom, with her fanfic and fanart?'

...I love all of this. I'm so not good at meta myself, but Who fandom is THE BEST AT META. :D

[fannishnonsense]

The moral of the story: listen to calapine, because she clearly has some sort of radar that detects Very Wrong Opinions. Just imagine all the facepalming you could've saved yourself!

[yiduiqie]

OMG I AM DESPERATE TO READ THE HARRIS BOOK TO SEE JUST HOW BAD IT IS

I SHOULDA READ DW BEFORE I WENT TO YOUR HOUSE

[lizbee]

I don't actually know where it is at the moment; there are about four boxes of books that I haven't unpacked yet. But I'll dig it up for you. IT'S GREAT.