Worldcon panels part 2
Sep. 12th, 2010 08:48 am![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
lizbeeI left off at the conclusion of the Case for a Female Doctor panel, which ended with me having an aneurysm. In the hours that followed, I located mondyboy and calapine, and we slipped into the final half hour of a panel on fantasy elements in Shakespeare, in which robshearman and another gentleman said many intelligent things, and Allison Croggon said equally intelligent things, but more rarely, as she was losing her voice.
What happened next was my fault. The panel was called "We Are All Fairy Tales: Doctor Who's Fifth Season". I wanted to go.calapine was hesitant, fearing that it would be full of people being wrong. But I argued, with such a good name, how could it be anything other than a really interesting and clever panel about the themes and fairy tale elements of season 5?
Yyyyyyyyyyyyeah.
The panellists were Kathryn Sullivan, Narrelle M. Harris, George Ivanoff, Rani Graff, but I can't remember a single thing any individual person said, except that George Ivanoff (again, the only man on the panel) had an Anti-Sonic Screwdriver Agenda.
Going through my notes, same as before:
Actual Australians on this panel! Although I can't remember who was who, except that Narelle M. Harris is the author of the worst novel I have ever read. (It's a Melbourne-based urban supernatural romance about a librarian who becomes involved with vampires. I lend it to people who think I'm joking about how awful it is, and they give it back to me with wide, haunted eyes.)
"I love Torchwood." - bad sign. Introductory statement from a panellist. A sure sign that they're tastes arebad radically different from mine.
"I criticise Doctor Who." - "I am not like other fans." Another introductory statement, actual words and the implicit subtext.
"Season 5 was inferior to the rest of New Who." It was at this point that I realised this was not the panel of my dreams.
"I got through season 5 without being angry." I think this was Kathryn Sullivan; she talked about how, even in really good episodes, RTD-era who nearly always contained some sting in the subtext (or text) that left her feeling angry and hurt. She found that season 5 was much better in that respect.
Season 4: Donna's end was evil. As an example of the above.
I've written, "The Doctor was made to look stupider than the Doctor." What was actually said, and I think this was by George Ivanoff, as I associate it with a male voice, is that the Doctor was made to look stupider than Amy. (No examples were given; I presume he was referring to "The Beast Below", where the Doctor is too paralysed by rage and grief to perceive what Amy does.)
This led to the following:
What's with all the Amy hate? This panel is full of Tennant fans. Why is this panel dominated by season 5 haters? Questions that will echo through to the end of time.
Reaction to Matt Smith = reaction to Sylvester McCoy. As in the fandom's response to the casting. "Oh noes, a funny-looking young white guy with stupid hair!" "Oh noes, a Scottish man who put ferrets down his pants!" I'm not sure I wholly agree, but it was an interesting remark.
Since when is Moffat incapable of showrunning? Written in response to a remark about how Moffat lacks experience as a showrunner and shouldn't have been given the job. Sorry, Press Gang, Coupling, Jekyll and the series that I can't remember on account of how they weren't asgood successful iconic, you don't count anymore.
Am I in a universe where RTD didn't stuff up until season 4? Responding to the comment, "Russell T Davies didn't oversee a dud episode until three and a half years into his run. With Moffat, it was three episodes." I wish I lived in a universe where "The Long Game" hadn't happened.
Season 5 is not TNG season 1! No, really, anyone who makes a comparison that stupid has unexpectedly rosy memories of Star Trek: The Next Generation's first season. And I say that as someone who thinks "The Naked Now" is very underrated.
"I am not a Rusty-basher." - followed by a long list of failings. Tired of messiah complex. I believe this was Kathryn Sullivan again, presenting a very reasonable critique of RTD's Who.
How the fuck was the Doctor dumbed down? Look, was he over-powered or dumbed down? PS. Watch the damn episode again. In the same breath, Ivanoff (I think) complained again that the Doctor was dumbed down and powerless, and then that he was over-powered and omniscient. As an example, he used the "HELLOOOOO, STONEHENGE!" bit in "The Pandorica Opens", only he totally missed the bit where even the Doctor thought that was a stupid plan, and estimated it would only hold people off for about half an hour.
"Vincent and the Doctor" = popular. In fact, it was held up as the only good episode of the season. Certainly I think it was the best, but the only good one? Once again, I am glad the version of the series I watched was better than everyone else's. It was generally agreed that everything needs moar Bill Nighy.
The theme was memory. Every episode had a callback to Classic Who. I'm not sure about every episode, but I'll be more than happy to double check and be sure!
Should have put Pertwee's tattoo on Smiff. In the shower scene in "The Lodger". This is such a brilliant idea, I feel the BBC needs to go and CGI said tattoo in for the box set.
Yes, let's have a really low-key finale. That's good television! The same people who were complaining about Moff not knowing how to run a series now turned their attention to his invention of the Giant Epic Finale. I know, right? What we really need is more season enders like "The Armageddon Factor". Teach the kids what real television looks like.
"Father's Day" is a great episode - great Whovian fallacy. My thought in response to someone trotting that old myth out.
Immense attention to detail etc, eg the museum scenes. How much of the universe has changed post-Pandorica? Thoughts worth recording.
The fans have taken over! The show, they meant.
Angela Lansbury as the Doctor? Really? Yeah, I don't know either.
Yes, we're moving to a younger demographic. AND WOMEN! Women, let alone young women, have never watched DW before. They'll just mess it up and make it like Twilight or something.
Why so ageist? Hasn't DW always been a kids' show? JUST BECAUSE IT'S AIMED AT CHILDREN DOESN'T MAKE IT BAD! We went from "Oh noes, young womens!" to "Oh noes, now it's suddenly for children!"
A woman a few years younger than me put her hand up, and said that when she watched DW as a child in the '80s, she never had any doubt that it was aimed at a family audience. Here is where my blood really started to boil, because one of the (older, female) panellists interrupted her to say, "Yes, but it was censored in Australia, so you got the kiddy version."
And she tried to say, without success, that no, the McCoy era went uncensored, but she was basically talked over and dismissed. And this silencing of a young woman's opinions and experience sort of tied into the Amy stuff that followed.
Allegedly, Rory's death had no emotional impact. This was stated as fact.calapine was like, "Speak for yourself, mate," and I started sketching her little enraged face.
Amy needs a man to make her likable. Seriously, I love Rory, but some of his fans make me want to punch things.
But Amelia gets applause. Children are asexual and non-threatening! Amy is too bossy, but Amelia being bossy would have been awesome. And the moral is that young women, especially attractive young women, should never have or express opinions.
Splitting season means 2 giant finales? Which would, remember, be bad.
ONLY "VINCENT AND THE DOCTOR" DESERVES A HUGO! Not that it doesn't, I was just growing tired of the whole "'Vincent' was the only good episode" schtick.
The "Bad Wolf" and "Torchwood" memes were subtle and carefully planned and executed. In other news, there is no war in Ba Sing Se.
Long convo about the sonic screwdriver. No, really. Most people think it's overused and should be destroyed. There was a lot of talk about how it was destroyed in the Great Fire of London.calapine kept muttering, "No! It was shot by a Terileptil!" but by now we knew better than to interrupt our elders and betters with our silly girl ideas.
"I love River." FINALLY SOMEONE SAYS SOMETHING REASONABLE! However, this was followed by an explanation that River is only likable if she's not actually the Doctor's wife, because obviously Eleven is asexual (NO, REALLY) and female persons are only any good when they have no real sexuality (like Donna! Why can't River have a hilarious old lady sexuality like Donna?) and so on.
Then, I kid you not, someone said, "Anyway, the Doctor having any kind of emotional involvement with another character would cheapen his love for Rose."
CHEAPEN HIS LOVE FOR ROSE. REALLY! Trust me, girls, when a man dumps you in another universe, not one but three times, that's a benchmark against which all other great loves must be measured.
Anyway, I snorted rather loudly (for which I apologise to anyone sitting around us), andcalapine said, "Okay, we're leaving," and we escaped and went in search of restorative cocktails.
The only other panel I went to was about history in YA speculative fiction. It was an interesting panel by authors whose work I'm going to check out, but I felt it suffered from a lack of familiarity with current YA. I mean, I can talk about Joan Aiken until the cows come home, but the argument about historical accuracy, necessity thereof, would have been interesting if someone had raised the Great And Terrible Beauty series or others.
mondyboy and calapine, and we slipped into the final half hour of a panel on fantasy elements in Shakespeare, in which robshearman and another gentleman said many intelligent things, and Allison Croggon said equally intelligent things, but more rarely, as she was losing her voice. What happened next was my fault. The panel was called "We Are All Fairy Tales: Doctor Who's Fifth Season". I wanted to go.
calapine was hesitant, fearing that it would be full of people being wrong. But I argued, with such a good name, how could it be anything other than a really interesting and clever panel about the themes and fairy tale elements of season 5?Yyyyyyyyyyyyeah.
The panellists were Kathryn Sullivan, Narrelle M. Harris, George Ivanoff, Rani Graff, but I can't remember a single thing any individual person said, except that George Ivanoff (again, the only man on the panel) had an Anti-Sonic Screwdriver Agenda.
Going through my notes, same as before:
Actual Australians on this panel! Although I can't remember who was who, except that Narelle M. Harris is the author of the worst novel I have ever read. (It's a Melbourne-based urban supernatural romance about a librarian who becomes involved with vampires. I lend it to people who think I'm joking about how awful it is, and they give it back to me with wide, haunted eyes.)
"I love Torchwood." - bad sign. Introductory statement from a panellist. A sure sign that they're tastes are
"I criticise Doctor Who." - "I am not like other fans." Another introductory statement, actual words and the implicit subtext.
"Season 5 was inferior to the rest of New Who." It was at this point that I realised this was not the panel of my dreams.
"I got through season 5 without being angry." I think this was Kathryn Sullivan; she talked about how, even in really good episodes, RTD-era who nearly always contained some sting in the subtext (or text) that left her feeling angry and hurt. She found that season 5 was much better in that respect.
Season 4: Donna's end was evil. As an example of the above.
I've written, "The Doctor was made to look stupider than the Doctor." What was actually said, and I think this was by George Ivanoff, as I associate it with a male voice, is that the Doctor was made to look stupider than Amy. (No examples were given; I presume he was referring to "The Beast Below", where the Doctor is too paralysed by rage and grief to perceive what Amy does.)
This led to the following:
What's with all the Amy hate? This panel is full of Tennant fans. Why is this panel dominated by season 5 haters? Questions that will echo through to the end of time.
Reaction to Matt Smith = reaction to Sylvester McCoy. As in the fandom's response to the casting. "Oh noes, a funny-looking young white guy with stupid hair!" "Oh noes, a Scottish man who put ferrets down his pants!" I'm not sure I wholly agree, but it was an interesting remark.
Since when is Moffat incapable of showrunning? Written in response to a remark about how Moffat lacks experience as a showrunner and shouldn't have been given the job. Sorry, Press Gang, Coupling, Jekyll and the series that I can't remember on account of how they weren't as
Am I in a universe where RTD didn't stuff up until season 4? Responding to the comment, "Russell T Davies didn't oversee a dud episode until three and a half years into his run. With Moffat, it was three episodes." I wish I lived in a universe where "The Long Game" hadn't happened.
Season 5 is not TNG season 1! No, really, anyone who makes a comparison that stupid has unexpectedly rosy memories of Star Trek: The Next Generation's first season. And I say that as someone who thinks "The Naked Now" is very underrated.
"I am not a Rusty-basher." - followed by a long list of failings. Tired of messiah complex. I believe this was Kathryn Sullivan again, presenting a very reasonable critique of RTD's Who.
How the fuck was the Doctor dumbed down? Look, was he over-powered or dumbed down? PS. Watch the damn episode again. In the same breath, Ivanoff (I think) complained again that the Doctor was dumbed down and powerless, and then that he was over-powered and omniscient. As an example, he used the "HELLOOOOO, STONEHENGE!" bit in "The Pandorica Opens", only he totally missed the bit where even the Doctor thought that was a stupid plan, and estimated it would only hold people off for about half an hour.
"Vincent and the Doctor" = popular. In fact, it was held up as the only good episode of the season. Certainly I think it was the best, but the only good one? Once again, I am glad the version of the series I watched was better than everyone else's. It was generally agreed that everything needs moar Bill Nighy.
The theme was memory. Every episode had a callback to Classic Who. I'm not sure about every episode, but I'll be more than happy to double check and be sure!
Should have put Pertwee's tattoo on Smiff. In the shower scene in "The Lodger". This is such a brilliant idea, I feel the BBC needs to go and CGI said tattoo in for the box set.
Yes, let's have a really low-key finale. That's good television! The same people who were complaining about Moff not knowing how to run a series now turned their attention to his invention of the Giant Epic Finale. I know, right? What we really need is more season enders like "The Armageddon Factor". Teach the kids what real television looks like.
"Father's Day" is a great episode - great Whovian fallacy. My thought in response to someone trotting that old myth out.
Immense attention to detail etc, eg the museum scenes. How much of the universe has changed post-Pandorica? Thoughts worth recording.
The fans have taken over! The show, they meant.
Angela Lansbury as the Doctor? Really? Yeah, I don't know either.
Yes, we're moving to a younger demographic. AND WOMEN! Women, let alone young women, have never watched DW before. They'll just mess it up and make it like Twilight or something.
Why so ageist? Hasn't DW always been a kids' show? JUST BECAUSE IT'S AIMED AT CHILDREN DOESN'T MAKE IT BAD! We went from "Oh noes, young womens!" to "Oh noes, now it's suddenly for children!"
A woman a few years younger than me put her hand up, and said that when she watched DW as a child in the '80s, she never had any doubt that it was aimed at a family audience. Here is where my blood really started to boil, because one of the (older, female) panellists interrupted her to say, "Yes, but it was censored in Australia, so you got the kiddy version."
And she tried to say, without success, that no, the McCoy era went uncensored, but she was basically talked over and dismissed. And this silencing of a young woman's opinions and experience sort of tied into the Amy stuff that followed.
Allegedly, Rory's death had no emotional impact. This was stated as fact.
calapine was like, "Speak for yourself, mate," and I started sketching her little enraged face.Amy needs a man to make her likable. Seriously, I love Rory, but some of his fans make me want to punch things.
But Amelia gets applause. Children are asexual and non-threatening! Amy is too bossy, but Amelia being bossy would have been awesome. And the moral is that young women, especially attractive young women, should never have or express opinions.
Splitting season means 2 giant finales? Which would, remember, be bad.
ONLY "VINCENT AND THE DOCTOR" DESERVES A HUGO! Not that it doesn't, I was just growing tired of the whole "'Vincent' was the only good episode" schtick.
The "Bad Wolf" and "Torchwood" memes were subtle and carefully planned and executed. In other news, there is no war in Ba Sing Se.
Long convo about the sonic screwdriver. No, really. Most people think it's overused and should be destroyed. There was a lot of talk about how it was destroyed in the Great Fire of London.
calapine kept muttering, "No! It was shot by a Terileptil!" but by now we knew better than to interrupt our elders and betters with our silly girl ideas."I love River." FINALLY SOMEONE SAYS SOMETHING REASONABLE! However, this was followed by an explanation that River is only likable if she's not actually the Doctor's wife, because obviously Eleven is asexual (NO, REALLY) and female persons are only any good when they have no real sexuality (like Donna! Why can't River have a hilarious old lady sexuality like Donna?) and so on.
Then, I kid you not, someone said, "Anyway, the Doctor having any kind of emotional involvement with another character would cheapen his love for Rose."
CHEAPEN HIS LOVE FOR ROSE. REALLY! Trust me, girls, when a man dumps you in another universe, not one but three times, that's a benchmark against which all other great loves must be measured.
Anyway, I snorted rather loudly (for which I apologise to anyone sitting around us), and
calapine said, "Okay, we're leaving," and we escaped and went in search of restorative cocktails. The only other panel I went to was about history in YA speculative fiction. It was an interesting panel by authors whose work I'm going to check out, but I felt it suffered from a lack of familiarity with current YA. I mean, I can talk about Joan Aiken until the cows come home, but the argument about historical accuracy, necessity thereof, would have been interesting if someone had raised the Great And Terrible Beauty series or others.
no subject
Date: 2010-09-12 12:37 am (UTC)Having been at this panel also, I am able to make informed comments this time.
But I argued, with such a good name, how could it be anything other than a really interesting and clever panel about the themes and fairy tale elements of season 5?
Yes, I also was disappointed that they completely ignored the putative topic of the panel and turned it into a "what I hated and liked about Season 5", especially since the "what I liked" parts were full of damning with faint praise.
I wish I lived in a universe where "The Long Game" hadn't happened.
True, but I have to say that the Dalek episode in Season 5 was worse. Mind you, it was the ONLY dud episode in Season 5.
now turned their attention to his invention of the Giant Epic Finale.
To be fair, they were criticising Rusty for that too. If I recall correctly, George Ivanoff opened that phase with "both Rusty and The Smoff were following the George Lucas school of writing", and he then proceeded to summarize every single Epic Finale in New Who. So I would take that as more of a criticism of Rusty than of Moffat.
I did think that Narelle Harris's comment about having a finale which consisted of "someone's Mum being cross at the Doctor" was amusing. I mean, of course that would never happen, but the remark was really a response to how over the top the finales had been getting.
Oh noes, now it's suddenly for children!
I think the complaint was that it had gone from a "family" show to a "children's" show... which, really, I don't get at all. <Professor Kirke>What do they teach them at these schools?</Professor Kirke>
1) It has always been a "family" show, and still is.
2) Of course the show-runners think it is for kids - haven't you noticed the thing on the BBC website where they get "scare" ratings from kids?
3) If you think the show has been "dumbed down" to be kids-only, you haven't seen The Sarah-Jane Adventures.
4) I don't care a fig if it is a "kids" show or a "family" show, because "kids" shows are nothing to be ashamed of watching, you silly ageists.
There was a lot of talk about how it was destroyed in the Great Fire of London.
I didn't feel it was worth being pedantic about that particular point. And there wasn't a lot of talk about it, it was simply mentioned to point out that the show-runners themselves at the time felt that the Sonic Screwdriver was getting too overpowered and making things too easy.
However, this was followed by an explanation that River is only likable if she's not actually the Doctor's wife, because obviously Eleven is asexual (NO, REALLY) and female persons are only any good when they have no real sexuality (like Donna! Why can't River have a hilarious old lady sexuality like Donna?) and so on.
Er, well, I don't want River to be the Doctor's wife, sorry. I am really annoyed by that meme.
And, mind you, they didn't say "female persons are only any good when they have no real sexuality" outright, just implied it.
And, whether or not Eleven is asexual, he's certainly more "asexual" than Ten, and I find it a great relief, because I was sick of all the Wromance in the TARDIS, because it harks back to the "the only point of a woman is to be a love-interest" sexism. Which I don't like.
"Anyway, the Doctor having any kind of emotional involvement with another character would cheapen his love for Rose."
That was Narelle Harris.
The only other panel I went to was about history in YA speculative fiction.
No, you were at the "Boxcutters Presents: Writing Doctor Who" one, because that's where I bumped into you. Unless you had somehow sneaked into the back and hadn't actually gone to the panel? Or does that one not count because it wasn't, strictly speaking, a "panel"?
no subject
Date: 2010-09-12 03:26 am (UTC)I don't know, "Victory of the Daleks" was exceptionally silly, but it didn't have the Doctor and companion being hateful to someone for failing to meet the rules he hadn't even specifically set.
"To be fair, they were criticising Rusty for that too. If I recall correctly, George Ivanoff opened that phase with "both Rusty and The Smoff were following the George Lucas school of writing", and he then proceeded to summarize every single Epic Finale in New Who."
Oh yeah, I'd totally forgotten about that!
"No, you were at the "Boxcutters Presents: Writing Doctor Who" one, because that's where I bumped into you. Unless you had somehow sneaked into the back and hadn't actually gone to the panel? Or does that one not count because it wasn't, strictly speaking, a "panel"?"
I wasn't really thinking of it as a panel. Not least because I was standing at the very back, and couldn't take notes, and obviously without notes, it never happened. Even though I enjoyed it more than the actual panels themselves.
no subject
Date: 2010-09-12 05:00 am (UTC)I would have thought "don't try to change history by making your mum a millionaire" would have been so obvious it wouldn't need to be stated.
And I did like the point about destroying the Fourth Great And Bountiful Human Empire by totally controlling its media and slanting the news to make the people react the way the Jagrafess wanted them to react.
And the episode I hated the most in New Who was "Tooth and Claw"; I can't bear re-watching it, because of the way that Rose and the Doctor were behaving. How many episodes can you say that they would have been much better if the Doctor and his companion weren't there? And it would have been, because Queen Victoria was awesome.
and obviously without notes, it never happened
(grin)
Even though I enjoyed it more than the actual panels themselves.
I wish you'd been able to make it to the "Fantasy Fiction and the Bechdel Test" panel. I'm sure you would have been able to contribute much interesting stuff to the discussion.