This is probably a bad sign

[lizbee]

Apparently my new thing is to get angry when people call Azula evil. I mean, she only invaded a city, tried to kill her brother, came up with a viable plan for world-wide genocide and also burned that guy's house down that one time. PEOPLE HAVE BEEN REDEEMED FROM WORSE!

...also, you can't diagnose sociopathy in a fourteen year old, and her obsessive touching devotion to her father and psychological vulnerability after Mai and Ty Lee betray her suggest that, however much Ozai tried, she's not a fully-blown sociopath.

ALSO, when Zuko confronted the futility of the destiny Ozai had chosen for him, he developed emo-itis fell into an angst coma became physically ill and feverish for a few days. When Azula is confronted with her ultimate powerlessness in her father's eyes, she has a full-blown psychotic breakdown. THEY ARE NOT THAT DIFFERENT.

TL;DR it bugs me when people say she has no soul. In serious meta, I mean; obviously Zuko has had cause to wonder.

I was going to compare Azula to Jaime Lannister for some reason, being that they're both considered monsters, but he gets a manly redemption arc. But then I remembered the other thing Jaime is best known for, aside from regicide. *awkward*

Comments

[neigedens]

This is an excellent point! Azula at 14 accomplished more than I have even come close to achieving in two decades (er, not that genocide and global takeover are high on my list of goals, but, you know, comparatively!) and yet...she's still 14! Think of all the horrible stuff you did when you were 14. Would you want people judging you for all that forever? No, you want them judging you for your horrible behavior RIGHT NOW. I mean come on.

[lizbee]

Think of all the horrible stuff you did when you were 14. Would you want people judging you for all that forever?

You know, I almost replied describing something horrible I did when I was about 16, and then I decided I did not want the people who know me now to know how cruel I was then. So, your point is proved!

[lorax]

I always thought that pushing Azula (and to a lesser extent Zuko) into the good/evil paradigm made no sense. They were both raised with the Fire Kingdom's methods being considered RIGHT. Zuko had his mother's influence, early on, which Azula says she never received in he same way, and then Iroh, who Azula had rejected as a role model, likely because she was younger and had more of her father's views on Iroh's weakness to shape her opinion without being old enough to form her own opinions when she idolized her father and wanted his approval. (Granted this is mostly assumption on my part and not strong timeline-fu.)

Azula's moral compass was shaped by her father, and even though she had those tendencies as a child. . . there are a lot of children who do AWFUL things without fully understanding the connotations of it. Morality, fairness, the "right" thing, I always assumed her upbringing wouldn't prioritize these things. Her father's priority was clearly CONQUERING and thus winning and he could give a shit about methods, so why would she have learned to when she saw that caring about those things only led to Zuko being seen as weak, anyway?

Though my insane love of Azula may shape my thoughts too much. Heh. I still wish we'd gotten a little more time to watch her unravel and they'd made it less sudden, because I think it would have come across as more heartbreaking, in addition to messed up, if it had been.

I can't really speak on the comparison to Jaime yet, since I'm only just reading the first book now and I doubt the show is exactly the same.

[lizbee]

I'm going to come back and answer this comment properly tonight, because my phone is not that great for proper conversation, but I AGREE.

And re: Zuko and Azula not really fitting neatly into the good/evil paradigm, that goes for most of the Fire Nation characters. I keep seeing comments at Mark Watches Avatar, saying they don't like Mai because she is insufficiently aware of her privilege, and I'm like, "...yes? That is the result of her background and upbringing, and anything else would MAKE NO SENSE."

[lizbee]

Now that I'm home, I can reply properly!

Zuko had his mother's influence, early on, which Azula says she never received in he same way, and then Iroh, who Azula had rejected as a role model, likely because she was younger and had more of her father's views on Iroh's weakness to shape her opinion without being old enough to form her own opinions when she idolized her father and wanted his approval. (Granted this is mostly assumption on my part and not strong timeline-fu.)

No, that timeline works. Although I think your comments re: Iroh's influence, and Azula's rejection thereof, also apply to Ursa. Azula seems like a classic case of parental alienation, where Ozai has deliberately encouraged Azula to reject Ursa, and to see Ursa's attempts at discipline as unreasonable. I mean, my only evidence there is that Azula's hallucination of Ursa is affectionate and kind, which doesn't mesh with Azula's perception of her as distant or unloving. And my work has brought me in contact with a lot of cases like that, and it ... fits.

I still wish we'd gotten a little more time to watch her unravel and they'd made it less sudden, because I think it would have come across as more heartbreaking, in addition to messed up, if it had been.

Oh, me too. It's the only thing I wish I could change about the series -- one extra episode in the third season, dealing with Azula's breakdown and Mai and Ty Lee in prison, and then the finale as a movie-length special. WHY SO UNCOOPERATIVE, NICKELODEON? LOOK, I'M SENDING YOU TELEPATHIC MESSAGES FROM THE FUTURE AND EVERYTHING!

[lorax]

I mean, my only evidence there is that Azula's hallucination of Ursa is affectionate and kind, which doesn't mesh with Azula's perception of her as distant or unloving. And my work has brought me in contact with a lot of cases like that, and it ... fits.
That was how I saw it too, where her perception was shaped by what Ozai told her, and then in retrospect her hallucination was echoing the reality a little more, which actually helped contribute to her breakdown, maybe. I'd imagine the floating idea that maybe SHE'D driven her mother (and subsequently her brother and her uncle and best friends) away based on the preconception that Ozai was A, right, and B, cared about her, and facing that she might possibly be wrong would add to her problems. I don't think she had really ACKNOWLEDGED that line of thinking at all yet by the end of the show, but I'm sure the thoughts lurked after Ozai essentially threw her away because he had what he wanted.

It's the only thing I wish I could change about the series -- one extra episode in the third season, dealing with Azula's breakdown and Mai and Ty Lee in prison, and then the finale as a movie-length special. WHY SO UNCOOPERATIVE, NICKELODEON? LOOK, I'M SENDING YOU TELEPATHIC MESSAGES FROM THE FUTURE AND EVERYTHING!
Yes Yes Yes! I mean, I *love* Zuko's journey and Aang and the rest of them, but I feel like I would have sacrificed some time from their story if I could have gotten a little more EVEN ending to Azula's. I don't think it's at all an OOC ending for her, and I did like it, but I felt like with one more episode to sprawl out and foreshadow, it would have been much more satisfying.

[juliekarasik]

Snerk.

Westeros. Where twincest is *cannon*.


Aaaand.... now I want that on a t-shirt. :)

[fox1013]

I never think of myself as a crazy defensive Avatar fan, and then I see a post like this, and right now I am UP IN ARMS at the idea of anyone saying shit like that about Azula.

SHE'S A TEEN GIRL WHO WAS FOLLOWING THE MORAL CODE SHE WAS RAISED IN. THAT'S NOT EVIL >>>>:(

[lizbee]

Exactly! Blame Ozai, Mr Setting My Kid's Face On Fire Is Totes Good Discipline! Or Azulon, Mr I'll Punish My Son By Making Him Kill My Grandson. Or, of course, Sozin, Getting Over My Ex Through Genocide Is As Reasonable As My Imperialism Is Benevolent!

It's not that Azula's not responsible for her choices -- I love the approach taken with Zuko, that his decisions come from a bad place, but they're still his responsibilyu -- but vilifying Azula alone is not fair.

[biichan]

Yes. THIS. I mean, she's supremely fucked up and all, but you can tell that she was made that way by Ozai. And it probably doesn't help that the last year or two before we meet her, she probably hasn't had much to do with people who aren't Ozai or Ozai's yeshotmen, what with the rest of the family gone and her two actual friends elsewhere. (Okay, Li and Lo have been around, but I don't quite get them. Does ANYONE get them? That twin double-act is seriously weird sometimes.)

But then I remembered the other thing Jaime is best known for, aside from regicide. *awkward*

... but, but, but Zucest! (Ah, not that Zuko seems like he'd be into it, but Azula really kind of does sometimes.)

[lizbee]

"And it probably doesn't help that the last year or two before we meet her, she probably hasn't had much to do with people who aren't Ozai or Ozai's yeshotmen, what with the rest of the family gone and her two actual friends elsewhere."

AND she has a face-burning example of what would happen if she defied Ozai even a little. Although I don't think she really comprehends until the end that Ozai would treat her the same way.

" (Okay, Li and Lo have been around, but I don't quite get them. Does ANYONE get them? That twin double-act is seriously weird sometimes.)"

It's my private canon that they were the White Loyltus agents assigned to Azula, just as Itoh took care of Zuko, but frankly, I don't think she would have allowed them to guide her the way Iroh did withherbrother.

As for Firecest, such is the stregth of my opposition to it that I've only written it three times for the kinkmeme. So far.

[biichan]

It's my private canon that they were the White Loyltus agents assigned to Azula, just as Itoh took care of Zuko, but frankly, I don't think she would have allowed them to guide her the way Iroh did withherbrother.

Oh dude, I can totally see that. (And now I kind of want to see them at a White Lotus meeting, with Iroh and Pakku and Bumi and Pindao and all. Is it wrong that I suspect they had a threesome with Bumi back in the day?)

My own private canon has them as Azulon's little sisters. Which I think I might have picked up from someone, but I can't remember who.

As for Firecest, such is the stregth of my opposition to it that I've only written it three times for the kinkmeme. So far.

Heee.

[lizbee]

Is it wrong that I suspect they had a threesome with Bumi back in the day?

...No. No it is not.

My own private canon has them as Azulon's little sisters. Which I think I might have picked up from someone, but I can't remember who.

I've seen that as well, but I eventually decided they were Azulon's concubines. Er, because. And, you know, stuff.

[biichan]

...No. No it is not.

For all we know, they still have regular threesomes whenever the White Lotus has mixers.


I've seen that as well, but I eventually decided they were Azulon's concubines

HOMG THAT IS AWESOME TOO.

[lizbee]

...also, I apologise for all those typos. Tiny iPhone screen + comment boxes = shenanigans.

[lilacsigil]

I do think Azula is well on the way to being a sociopath (and her dad actually is one) but she's a fourteen-year-old in an environment pretty much designed to produce a sociopath. Zuko got away from there and slowly got better with good influences. Azula is just at the start of that journey.

[lizbee]

Oh yeah, totally. SMALL ANIMALS FLEE WHEN SHE APPROACHES!

But yes, the end of the series was the beginning of Azula's story in a way.

[selvage]

Somebody's been reading Mark Watches comments again! Seriously though, :/ I have so many feelings about Azula, and I don't mean that in a glib way - she is such a fascinating, polarising character who has such swathes of potential discussion in both her past that wasn't shown on screen, and her future, given how open-ended the finale was. I resent AtLA fans who paint her with the broad brush of 'evil' or 'sociopath'; the writers imbued her with incredible depth, probably only rivalled by Zuko in terms of character depth, imho, and to write her off as merely evil is an affront. To me. Ahem.

*sidles*

[lizbee]

Somebody's been reading Mark Watches comments again!

There are gifs! And sometimes really clever stuff.

But seriously, there are also SO MANY ISSUES. I mean, even the ISSUES stuff is strictly 101-level, and if you're going to argue that "fat" is always a slur regardless of context, well, I've got some fatshionistas with cricket bats waiting for you down this dark alley.

But yes, lots of THIS! to your comment! I empathise with Azula a lot, and I think she has a lot of layers. Which I wrote as lawyers. Which I expect she also has.

ALSO, I think that saying she's the way she is because of her father's abuse is not just writing her off as a victim. Because if that were the case, well, I know a lot of RL women who would also have to be written off. It's not what he did, it's what she does next.

...I think that What Azula Did Next might be the only story I really hope Bryke don't ever tell. Because, much as I think they're tops, I can't imagine they could do it better than the fanwomen.

[selvage]

Heh, I've gotten to the point that I only read the comments by names I recognise (usually the mods and a couple of others), and the gif spams. The markspoils.blogspot.com blog sometimes has good discussion, and facedesking about comment fail.

AZULA HAS ALL THE LAWYERS. :D :D :D

I really hope Bryke stay away from the Azula backstory as well - I like to think they understand that sometimes not tying up all the loose ends is more satisfying than a neat and tidy ending. And yeah, some of the fanworks and meta about Azula post-finale are pretty rad.

[lizbee]

I've never actually read the spoiler blog. Clearly I should, if only because I imagine it's a smaller group of people.

AZULA HAS ALL THE LAWYERS. :D :D :D

THERE IS PROBABLY AN AU IN THIS.

I like to think they understand that sometimes not tying up all the loose ends is more satisfying than a neat and tidy ending.

Exactly! I mean, I hope that Zuko finds Ursa in the comics, because obviously they did have something in mind for that story (but I reserve the right to write AUs if I have better or different ideas*) but unless they decide that Azula recovers and spends her life having zany adventures/doing Zuko's political dirty work/shagging Toph/teaching firebending prodigies I'm happy to leave it up in the air.

* I blame Capital Scandal and Song Joo for the fact that I want to write fic where Ursa is working as a courtesan in Ba Sing Se, and also working against the Dai Li. All of which is going REALLY WELL until her brother-in-law opens a tea shop and her daughter leads a three-girl invasion team, and no doubt Zuko is around being ... Zuko.

[selvage]

I've never actually read the spoiler blog. Clearly I should, if only because I imagine it's a smaller group of people.

It's a pretty good place! The mod has been away with family issues for a bit, but we're just adding comments to the latest post. Arctic_hare particularly is v. insightful and enthusiastic generally.

RE YOUR FOOTNOTE: OMG NEED TO DRAW URSA AS A BA SING SE COURTESAN. STAT. AND YOU NEED TO WRITE THIS FIC. YES.

[lizbee]

OMG NEED TO DRAW URSA AS A BA SING SE COURTESAN. STAT. AND YOU NEED TO WRITE THIS FIC. YES.

I WILL WRITE IT IF YOU DRAW IT! Only I'm not quite sure how it would go, aside from the bit where Ursa smiles and tells Long Feng that she is the woman who killed Fire Lord Azulon. Let me sleep on it.

[fyrdrakken]

I sort of want to suggest comparing her to Joffrey Lannister, in that she's clearly the product of the upbringing of a parent with a moral compass that is at the very least badly askew, if not missing entirely, and might have turned out better had decent people had more of a hand in raising them. Without the sibling who grew up under the same conditions and eventually realized their parent wasn't such a great role model -- hmm, that starts to map Azula onto Cersei and Zuko onto Jaime, actually.